The Tao of Publias II

Originally posted by marketsurfer
there are times and there have been periods in english when there were emotions that don't exist anymore, because the words have been lost. this is getting very close to this business of how reality is made by lanquage. can we recover a loss emotion by creating a word for it ? there are colors that dont exist anymore because the words have been lost. i'm thinking of the word "jacinth" this is a certain kind of orange-- a sort of darker orange. once you know the word, you can always recoqnize it. if you dont know it, it does not exist for you ( the color)"
More...

Wouldn't that imply that the act of thinking itself is not possible without words?
I disagree that without words certain things cannot be 'known' (understood). Words are only a tool for sharing our thoughts with others (although they do facilitate thinking). Certainly I can feel a certain emotion but not have a word for it. The fact that I can not adequately articulate how it feels to another person does not mean that I haven't felt it.

Having said that, I do believe that after our brain becomes accustomed to thinking in 'language', certain thought patterns become more ingrained, whilst others - for which there is either non-existant or seldom used language - are seldom experienced.

There are, in the English language, thousands of words that describe various emotions. The fact (?) that most people use only a small percentage of them does, I guess, mean that most are living within an arbitrarily narrow emotional range.
 
Originally posted by marketsurfer
gentlemen,
there were emotions that don't exist anymore, because the words have been lost.
More...

Now this I can attest to from my direct experience with the game of trading :D

Publias
 
Originally posted by marketsurfer
everyone, thanks for shedding some light on the fascinating concept of lanquage creating reality---or not.


a seeker of truth,

Origin of Language by Brian Swimme , Ph.D. From Canticle to the Cosmos…

“ One idea is the language arose around the fire at night. The only species that controls fire is the human, beginning 1.4 million years ago. The daytime was filled with providing and doing the work at hand. When nighttime came they would normally sleep. But now, with fire, came a window of opportunities. These humans would reflect on their stupendous experiences and they began to explore this together.
A way of saying it biologically is that a new selection pressure was brought forth-the pressure of linguistic competence. Those gifted with language could effect a group very strongly. The genetic type that could further this development were favored.
The human’s task or destiny is to create in language the wisdom that is required for survival and that was previously provided by the genetic code. This is the significance of language. The genetic intelligence spills over into another kind of coding: language. Now the transgenetic coding enables the human to survive and flourish.
The slight difference between the prehuman primates and the human is a liberation from tightly bound programs of activity. Human consciousness doesn’t have an irresistible action plan to proceed with. The awareness itself is dwelt upon and so we are given to gawking.
The cave paintings are the first stupendous effort at this. There is no possible way of speaking of advancing beyond what was achieved there. The whole panorama of symbol-sets stared there”

In the flickering flames,
The dream came alive.

Joseph
More...
 
"Smiles form the channel of a future tear." ~Lord Byron~

If you allow yourself to become haughty and prideful in times of good fortune what shall happen when its anti-thesis comes to visit; for the seed has already been planted...

THIS IS MY TRUTH
Publias
 
"If you seek vengeance, dig two graves" ~Proverb~

To stand upright is to be in discord. If there is conflict you can be sure that her indomitable spirit will have the last laugh.

THIS IS MY TRUTH
Publias
 

"When you trade your monitor will do a funny thing. It will become a mirror."
~Rogue Trader; Elitetrader 2002~



a0001555.jpg
.
~M.C. Escher; Hand with Reflecting Sphere 1935~


THIS IS MY TRUTH (Expressed by Rogue Trader & M.C. Escher)
Publias
 
THIS IS MY TRUTH---------> Publias [/B][/QUOTE]

NO-WAY----------------------------------------------UNC.

"When I tell the truth, it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those that do."
-William Blake

"The object of the superior man is truth."
-Confucius

"It is an old maxim of mine that when you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
-Conan Doyle

"No one is entitled to the truth."
-E. Howard Hunt

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad."
-Aldous Huxley

"It is always the best policy to speak the truth, unless, of course, you are an exceptionally good liar."
-Jerome K. Jerome

"All great truths begin as blasphemies."
-George Bernard Shaw

"Be true to your work, your word, and your friend."
-Henry David Thoreau

"The pure and simple truth is rarely pure and never simple."
-Oscar Wilde
 
Originally posted by Publias


Reality is not created by words, it is our perception of reality that is often distorted by words, measurements, labels, etc.

And therein lies the apparent "paradox of reality" that is perpetuated by the minds tendency to constantly apply labels and measurements to reality. The problem is that any and all conceptualizations of the mind about reality will be self-inferential in nature because we are a part of it. We are shaping "it" as much as "it" is shaping us... Ever see the Escher drawing with the two hands drawing themselves??? :)

We see this all the time in science, mathematics and philosophy.

Math; Godels Incompleteness Theorem
Science; The Uncertainty Principle
Philosophy; "All Cretans are liars"

It is often a folly of the human condition to confuse our conception of reality with reality itself. I think Plato or Euclid actually had "God was a geometrician" on his gate leading to his home. For a long time the greatest minds actually thought that geometry existed in the outside objective world, that is until Einstein shattered Newtons theory of space-time when it proved to be 4 dimensional when taken past the speed of light... Past the speed of light Space-Time is actually curvature and we know you can't very well place a right angle on a sphere :)

What I am trying to say is that while words, labels, associations, or any free creation of the mind can create emotion and often create what we perceive to be reality, it is NOT reality itself. This is just our perception of reality that is set in motion by our minds tendency to identify a world outside of ourselves. As my signature says "The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon itself"

The sun still caressed the face of a pre-historic man before he had a label to try and define it.

So I stick by my initial answer that the "thing" still exists without the word to define it. An emotion or sensation can still be experienced even know we have no word for it. I know this first hand because I have no words to accurately express the myriad of sensations that I felt the first time I ate mushrooms, but I can assure you that I still experienced it. At the same time an emotion can be lost when the word or conceptualization that perpetuated it is lost.
More...



Right On!

I just stumbled in here and Publias I must say that what you speak of above is some trizzue shiznit. Well spoken...two quick thoughts:

some of my best ideas and concepts are the ones hardest to verbally express. Usually I get a flavor or an image long before I get the words to peg it down (if I ever do).

Re emotions, I have had the experience of some very wacky combinations. For example, there have been situations- usually trading or discovery related- where I have found myself angry, happy, depressed and excited all at the same time. Crazy combinations that make no sense, like jellybean beer or steak ice cream. The limitations of words and language dull our tongues and our sense of touch. If we are not careful those limitations can dull our minds too.

So the moral is, Think outside the box! (case in point- I can't stand that lame five cent expression but can't think of a better one at moment LOL)
 
Originally posted by Publias

Wipe out humans and you annihilate words... The real question is if you wipe out humans do you wipe out evrything else???
More...


nope, cuz humans ain't the source, they're just small scale derivatives of the source

'if a tree falls in the forest etc' is a false paradox because there is always someone there to 'hear it' (and to keep the rules in play)

and now back to your regularly scheduled koans :cool:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top