There is nothing sustainable about ethanol.
The Sustainable Development Forum 2007 - Ethanol and Biofuels.
- Thread starter SouthAmerica
- Start date
Why would you say such a stupid thing? Not only is it sustainable, the alcohol derived from green plant is solar energy in disguise. In small scale it predates recorded history. In large scale it has couple hundred of years of production (for both human consumption and as a solvent, chemical feed stock etc.) As a widely used automotive fuel, at least three decades of sustained and growing production. Now in Brazil more than half of the cars run on the pure stuff (except what they put in to keep me from drinking it. Perhaps that is you problem? You have been drinking it. That could account for such a stupid, unsupported statement.)
Yes, when the sun ceases to shine, the production of alcohol on Earth will stop (but so will the need for it long before that).
Are you trying to top acronym's prior unsupported bull shit posted here? I doubt if the two of you together even have a "whole deck of cards" as SA put it.
Lol, I think I went a weeeeee-bit over the top in my prior post there, sorry 'bout that SA and billdick, *ahem*. Ooops
That would have been a very interesting conference SA, a power-gaggle of elite discussing what amounts to their very own business.
My ridiculous overreaction, is twofold, firstly;
the idea that again, people are effectively looking to make fuel from food-thats the crux of sustainability, and given unlimited demand-which we already have-then no amount of acreage, clearfelled forest, old style plantations rehabilitated or otherwise will be capable of meeting it.
I understand the concept of biomass fuel well enough, but pure bagasse, year in year out, does not a high yeilding sugar cane crop make, especially in tropical soils which leach minerals like a sieve-in short, if fertiliser and chemical corps are necessary to maintain high yeild crops, the sustainability equation goes out the window, does it not?
Were you advocating a purely organic growing method, it would make more sense, except nobody but a government could grow it, or they would go broke farming it.
The great barrier reef is a good example, its paying the price of, among other things, intensive sugar cane farming and heavy fertilisation.
Of course its converted solar energy, no disagreement there, BUT input costs need to be thoroughly addressed, be it land clearing or vast quantities of chemicals.
Secondly, billdick's assertion/idea that tropical nations growing sugar cane could solve the worlds fuel problems (that was your quote, right? If not i screwed up again and my apologies-there are weird triangles everywhere, whats up with that?) would be great-for the REST of the world.
Maybe they could move toward self sufficiency, but beyond that i think the scope is limited.
Rather like the disastrous effects of pure sugar on the western diet, and the slave labour previously needed to make it, my assertion is that reconstituting this particular farming tradition (sugar cane in tropical climes) to make fuel for the world would be nothing short of apocalyptic.
In order to make even a tiny dent in worldwide fuel demand, every single tropical nation on earth would need to be cleared, of people and vegetation, and turned into bio-farms; and that isnt going to happen, nor is demand going to drop.
I never said i was smart enough to come up with something better, apart from algae/hemp, but plantation derived ethanol in my opinion is not sustainable in any way as a long term solution.
But neither is fuel itself, or modern society generally, i should mention that.
Demand will exceed supply, sooner or later, of anything and everything.
But ethanol is , at absolute best, a stop gap.
So, no need for anyone to , uh, paint swastikas on your head at this point, im sure
.
April 2, 2008
SouthAmerica: Reply to acronym
You said: âThat would have been a very interesting conference SA, a power-gaggle of elite discussing what amounts to their very own business.â
Yes that was a very exclusive event they charged $ 25,000 per table for ten people, and an individual ticket cost $ 2,500 per person. They still had about 600 or 700 people in attendance. I recognized a number of mainstream media, Brazilians reporters and television talking heads. During the entire time they also had about 5 or 6 television crews recording the entire event â the various television crews were from Brazil, United States, Europe, and Middle East.
There were over 30 people who gave some kind of presentation about the ethanol industry, the auto industry in Brazil, major producers of ethanol including Petrobras, and so onâ¦
The most interesting speeches were given by the Governors of Amazonas and also of Mata Grosso (these are states in Brazil). They also made a very interesting presentation with the slide shows. They covered a bunch of subjects during their presentations including all the government regulations that they have today to protect the environment.
By the way, I did start reading the latest issue of Time magazine the one that the cover story is about ethanol âThe Clean Energy Myth.â And some of the information on that article is not accurate according to the presentations that I heard on that forum from the Governors of Amazonas and Mato Grosso.
One of the most interesting presentations was given by the president of Fiat â an automobile manufacturer in Brazil. He talked and had all kinds of information about the development of the flex-fuel cars that uses ethanol. He mentioned all the changes that they had to make over time to fix all the problems that they had because of ethanol. It was a great presentation and very informative. That fellow gave an outstanding presentation.
The other interesting presentation was given by a well know French architect â regarding strategies for sustainable urban development.
A high official of Italyâs Ministry for the Environment Land and Sea gave a speech about the implementation of the Kyoto Protocol in Italy.
Various CEOâs and chaiman of ethanol producing companies also gave very interesting presentations about the ethanol industry. They talked about all the new developments on that industry and one of the fellows mentioned that his company already had increased the ratio of ethanol production to 12 to 1 and in the near future the ratio would go up even further to 16 to 1.
My friend former president Jose Sarney gave the opening remarks (by the way, he is an excellent speaker) and most of the morning he was sitting on the stage with the people who were giving presentations. But during the luncheon he was sitting on the table next to mine â he was sitting right behind me.
When former president Sarney came to his table we had the chance to chat for a while and I introduced him to my Arab friends.
All I can say is that I learned a lot during that day, and it was an outstanding event with lots of interesting presentations.
There were also many people from the investment community attending the forum.
.
April 2, 2008
SouthAmerica: Reply to acronym
You said: âThat would have been a very interesting conference SA, a power-gaggle of elite discussing what amounts to their very own business.â
Yes that was a very exclusive event they charged $ 25,000 per table for ten people, and an individual ticket cost $ 2,500 per person. They still had about 600 or 700 people in attendance. I recognized a number of mainstream media, Brazilians reporters and television talking heads. During the entire time they also had about 5 or 6 television crews recording the entire event â the various television crews were from Brazil, United States, Europe, and Middle East.
There were over 30 people who gave some kind of presentation about the ethanol industry, the auto industry in Brazil, major producers of ethanol including Petrobras, and so onâ¦
The most interesting speeches were given by the Governors of Amazonas and also of Mata Grosso (these are states in Brazil). They also made a very interesting presentation with the slide shows. They covered a bunch of subjects during their presentations including all the government regulations that they have today to protect the environment.
By the way, I did start reading the latest issue of Time magazine the one that the cover story is about ethanol âThe Clean Energy Myth.â And some of the information on that article is not accurate according to the presentations that I heard on that forum from the Governors of Amazonas and Mato Grosso.
One of the most interesting presentations was given by the president of Fiat â an automobile manufacturer in Brazil. He talked and had all kinds of information about the development of the flex-fuel cars that uses ethanol. He mentioned all the changes that they had to make over time to fix all the problems that they had because of ethanol. It was a great presentation and very informative. That fellow gave an outstanding presentation.
The other interesting presentation was given by a well know French architect â regarding strategies for sustainable urban development.
A high official of Italyâs Ministry for the Environment Land and Sea gave a speech about the implementation of the Kyoto Protocol in Italy.
Various CEOâs and chaiman of ethanol producing companies also gave very interesting presentations about the ethanol industry. They talked about all the new developments on that industry and one of the fellows mentioned that his company already had increased the ratio of ethanol production to 12 to 1 and in the near future the ratio would go up even further to 16 to 1.
My friend former president Jose Sarney gave the opening remarks (by the way, he is an excellent speaker) and most of the morning he was sitting on the stage with the people who were giving presentations. But during the luncheon he was sitting on the table next to mine â he was sitting right behind me.
When former president Sarney came to his table we had the chance to chat for a while and I introduced him to my Arab friends.
All I can say is that I learned a lot during that day, and it was an outstanding event with lots of interesting presentations.
There were also many people from the investment community attending the forum.
.
.
Acronym: SA, you do realise ethanol is a complete joke in energy terms,
*****
April 2, 2008
SouthAmerica: They moved this thread from the economics forum to the chit chat forum. No wonder the US is in such trouble regarding its energy needs when people think that a discussion about energy belongs on the forum where people post jokes.
I donât look at ethanol in Brazil in the same way you do it.
I have a broad vision of the entire scene and I look at it from a different perspective.
The development of the ethanol industry in Brazil it is a great solution for Brazil to complement its energy needs.
Let put this way maybe you can grasp what I am trying to say. Today ethanol helps Brazil with over 40 percent of its energy usage. The ethanol industry is a local industry and creates thousands of jobs for local people.
Today Brazil is oil independent and for the first time on its history Brazil is a net exporter of oil. Only ten years ago Brazil was importing 40 percent of its oil needs.
The Brazilian ethanol refineries got so good and efficient on the production of ethanol that they use the bagaco as a source of fuel to generate the electricity necessary to operate these refineries. But they started generating a lot more electricity than they need to operate these ethanol refineries then they started selling the extra electric power to the power grid and millions of Brazilians today use the electric power generated by these ethanol refineries and in the process reducing the need for oil even further.
Brazil learned its lesson when the energy crisis of the 1970âs destroyed the Brazilian economy. Today if for any reason oil stopped flowing from the Middle East to the rest of the world the US economy would stop overnight, but in Brazil that would have a very small impact when compared with everybody else.
Brazil doesnât need to attack other countries such as Iraq to secure a source of energy.
Just look the price the US has to pay on its efforts of securing a source of oil for people who drive big gas guzzling SUVâs â not only the cost in cash (so far over $ 1 trillion dollars), but also the cost of lives and human misery.
Never mind the trillions of US dollars that have been transferred from the United States to all these oil producing countries.
Ethanol is good for Brazil in many levels, self-sufficiency regarding its energy needs, create thousands of local jobs (from sugar cane plantations, to refineries, to pipelines, to distribution, and so onâ¦). It is a renewable resource. Saves Brazil billions and billions of US dollars necessary to pay for imported oil on the international market, and improves the Brazilian economy in general.
*****
Billdick: Do you have any relative data? For example, if considered as an "energy crop," how much water does each unit of alcohol energy from sugar cane require compared to that same unit of energy in diesel fuel from soy beans.
*****
SouthAmerica: I donât have any data, but when I was at that forum one of the CEOâs of one of the ethanol producing companies mentioned that sugar cane production required a lot of freshwater.
My cousin is a senior editor of âO Estado de Sao Pauloâ which is the newspaper in Brazil equivalent to The New York Times in the US. He is the senior editor in the area of environment, ecology, agriculture, and so on. He just finished a book that is on the process of being printed, and he started writing his next book â a book about cellulose.
If you need to know how much water each type of crop needs I can ask my cousin, he might be able to answer your question.
But anyway, the point that I was trying to make is that if a country does not have water it does not matter if they are going to grow wheat, corn, soybean, or sugar cane â without water chances are you are not going to grow anything.
Today even places such as Haiti I donât know how much freshwater they have available to start new sugar cane plantations.
Freshwater resources it is becoming a major issue around the world.
.
Acronym: SA, you do realise ethanol is a complete joke in energy terms,
*****
April 2, 2008
SouthAmerica: They moved this thread from the economics forum to the chit chat forum. No wonder the US is in such trouble regarding its energy needs when people think that a discussion about energy belongs on the forum where people post jokes.
I donât look at ethanol in Brazil in the same way you do it.
I have a broad vision of the entire scene and I look at it from a different perspective.
The development of the ethanol industry in Brazil it is a great solution for Brazil to complement its energy needs.
Let put this way maybe you can grasp what I am trying to say. Today ethanol helps Brazil with over 40 percent of its energy usage. The ethanol industry is a local industry and creates thousands of jobs for local people.
Today Brazil is oil independent and for the first time on its history Brazil is a net exporter of oil. Only ten years ago Brazil was importing 40 percent of its oil needs.
The Brazilian ethanol refineries got so good and efficient on the production of ethanol that they use the bagaco as a source of fuel to generate the electricity necessary to operate these refineries. But they started generating a lot more electricity than they need to operate these ethanol refineries then they started selling the extra electric power to the power grid and millions of Brazilians today use the electric power generated by these ethanol refineries and in the process reducing the need for oil even further.
Brazil learned its lesson when the energy crisis of the 1970âs destroyed the Brazilian economy. Today if for any reason oil stopped flowing from the Middle East to the rest of the world the US economy would stop overnight, but in Brazil that would have a very small impact when compared with everybody else.
Brazil doesnât need to attack other countries such as Iraq to secure a source of energy.
Just look the price the US has to pay on its efforts of securing a source of oil for people who drive big gas guzzling SUVâs â not only the cost in cash (so far over $ 1 trillion dollars), but also the cost of lives and human misery.
Never mind the trillions of US dollars that have been transferred from the United States to all these oil producing countries.
Ethanol is good for Brazil in many levels, self-sufficiency regarding its energy needs, create thousands of local jobs (from sugar cane plantations, to refineries, to pipelines, to distribution, and so onâ¦). It is a renewable resource. Saves Brazil billions and billions of US dollars necessary to pay for imported oil on the international market, and improves the Brazilian economy in general.
*****
Billdick: Do you have any relative data? For example, if considered as an "energy crop," how much water does each unit of alcohol energy from sugar cane require compared to that same unit of energy in diesel fuel from soy beans.
*****
SouthAmerica: I donât have any data, but when I was at that forum one of the CEOâs of one of the ethanol producing companies mentioned that sugar cane production required a lot of freshwater.
My cousin is a senior editor of âO Estado de Sao Pauloâ which is the newspaper in Brazil equivalent to The New York Times in the US. He is the senior editor in the area of environment, ecology, agriculture, and so on. He just finished a book that is on the process of being printed, and he started writing his next book â a book about cellulose.
If you need to know how much water each type of crop needs I can ask my cousin, he might be able to answer your question.
But anyway, the point that I was trying to make is that if a country does not have water it does not matter if they are going to grow wheat, corn, soybean, or sugar cane â without water chances are you are not going to grow anything.
Today even places such as Haiti I donât know how much freshwater they have available to start new sugar cane plantations.
Freshwater resources it is becoming a major issue around the world.
.
I will if I can, but live in Brazil. Please indicate if it is speaking of the US corn based alcohol when stating that is "unstainable" or including sugar cane alcohol grow in or near the troppics.
I agree that a petroleum based economy is "unstainable" (Peak oil it real- only when is uncertain. -after the peak the prices really surge, but oil never runds out totally.)
Iowa corn based alcohol only advaces the day of Peak oil as it is energy negative, so of course it is not sustainable. Tropical alcohol, with 8 fold energy gain, is very sustainable.
Well, first we have to define "sustainable". According the article, tropical *sugar cane* based alcohol is the only one that has any significant energy gain ... that much of your assertion is true.
However, since any practical gain in production requires deforestation, the carbon result of such production is disastrous and therefore can't be considered "sustainable".
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1725975,00.html
JB
.
Turok: However, since any practical gain in production requires deforestation, the carbon result of such production is disastrous and therefore can't be considered "sustainable".
*****
April 3, 2008
SouthAmerica: As I mentioned above the Time magazine cover story is not accurate regarding sugar cane production in Brazil and the destruction of the Amazon jungle.
One of the major points that the Governor of Amazon state and also the governor of Mato Grosso state in Brazil made during their presentations on that forum was to show that sugar cane production in Brazil was having no impact whatsoever on the destruction of the Amazon area. There are no sugar cane plantations in the area that is considered part of the Amazon jungle.
As a matter of fact the soil in the Amazon area is not proper for sugar cane production. The Amazon soil is not good even to grow rice and beans the staple food of the poor people who were relocated to that part of the country.
Again that cover story article on the latest issue of Time magazine is not accurate regarding the impact that sugar cane production in Brazil has on the destruction of the Amazon jungle.
.
Turok: However, since any practical gain in production requires deforestation, the carbon result of such production is disastrous and therefore can't be considered "sustainable".
*****
April 3, 2008
SouthAmerica: As I mentioned above the Time magazine cover story is not accurate regarding sugar cane production in Brazil and the destruction of the Amazon jungle.
One of the major points that the Governor of Amazon state and also the governor of Mato Grosso state in Brazil made during their presentations on that forum was to show that sugar cane production in Brazil was having no impact whatsoever on the destruction of the Amazon area. There are no sugar cane plantations in the area that is considered part of the Amazon jungle.
As a matter of fact the soil in the Amazon area is not proper for sugar cane production. The Amazon soil is not good even to grow rice and beans the staple food of the poor people who were relocated to that part of the country.
Again that cover story article on the latest issue of Time magazine is not accurate regarding the impact that sugar cane production in Brazil has on the destruction of the Amazon jungle.
.
I think you should re-read both my quote and the article.
Neither I nor the article could be wrong regarding the above -- *because neither state the above*.
Classic strawman on your part.
According to the article, the expansion of sugar crops is happening in the cerrado savanna -- not the amazon, but with it's own associated carbon destructive deforestation.
If your going to argue against something written, at least read what is written or you just look like a fool.
JB