The Right of Return

[WAEL012000]

Quote from dddooo:

At Camp David, the Palestinians maintained their traditional position that the right of return be implemented...According to U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, some of the Palestinian negotiators were willing to discuss privately a limit on the number of refugees who would be allowed to return to Israel
...
Ehud Barak offered Arafat an eventual 91% (after many years - see section on territory) of the West Bank, and all of the Gaza Strip, with Palestinian control over Eastern Jerusalem as the capital of the new Palestinian state; in addition, all refugees could apply for compensation of property from an international fund to which Israel would contribute along with other countries. But before any gradual Israeli withdrawal, all Palestinian terrorist infrastructure must be dismantled. Arafat, however, refused.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit

Buddy...How many times did I tell you not to use your wikipedia?!
As far as I am concerned, it could be YOU who added the last statement. As a matter of fact, I am almost positive that a crock in your caliber is the one who added it.

This is an article by an ISRAELI author that clarifies the matter...CROCK!!

Getting nowhere fast
The least productive of the committees was the one on refugees - those living reminders of the disaster of 1948 known as the nakba and its raw scars. The Palestinians expect some real gestures from the Israelis - especially since their responsibility for the expulsion of the refugees in 1948-49 has now been proved (6). Despite this, there were just the same old speeches: Israel immediately disclaimed all responsibility and refused to make any sort of apology. "The most we can do", said an Israeli official, "is to express our sorrow for the sufferings of the refugees, the way we would for any accident or natural disaster."

What about the compensation also expected under Resolution 194? At one session of the committee, the following exchange of views took place:

Yasser Abed Rabbo, for the Palestinians: "We expect to be repaid for the property of the refugees, administered by the Israeli official responsible for abandoned Palestinian property. In 1949 a tripartite committee [British/French/Turkish] estimated the value of this property at £1,124,000,000 sterling [today’s value is several hundred billion dollars.- A.K.]. The refugees must start to receive compensation by using those funds."

Elyakim Rubinstein, for the Israelis: "These funds no longer exist. We have used them up. It is up to the international community to create funds for this."
Return of the refugees’ property was also categorically refused. What is more, only a part of the international funds would go to the Palestinian refugees. The other part, according to Israel, should go to compensating "Jewish refugees who fled the Arab countries" after 1948. This met with stupefaction and bitterness on the part of the Palestinian team: "Not only did these new immigrants move into the houses whose owners had been thrown out or had fled the massacres, but they want to indemnify them at our expense."
Abed Rabbo: "Why did you not ask Egypt for reparations during the peace talks?"

Rubinstein: "We decided to keep this subject for the talks on the Palestinian refugees."

Abed Rabbo: "I protest. This problem has nothing to do with us. Bring it up with the Moroccan authorities, the Yemenis and so on."

http://mondediplo.com/2000/09/08campdavid

 

[WAEL012000]

Quote from dddooo:

Or was I cornered by his purpoted support of international law and the UN...except when it was the Arab world that violated virtually all provisions of international laws and multiple UN resolutions, then it was OK, understandable and the fault of the western powers.

Again! Show me one UN resolution that the Palestinians defied! You know what?! I am willing to even go further that that! Show me one UN resolution that any Arab state defied aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand GOT AWAY WITH!!

Get a clue Wael, your palestinians brethren are murdering each other in Gaza, murdering the Lebanese in Lebanon, murdering Israelis in Israel. They were expelled from Kuwait and other gulf countries, no one wants them, certainly not Israel. With friends like 2cents and Z10, with political parties like Hamas and Fatah you are never going to have a country. Nor you deserve to.

Murdering the Lebanese in Lebanon?? Even though it was proven that none of the fighters from Fath El Islam were Palestinians??

Murdering Lebanese dddooo? like how? like showering southern Lebanon with cluster bombs that that dispensed hundreds of thousands of smaller bombs some of them shaped like toys??

Murdering Lebanese? Like how dddooo??

Like this???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyr_m3djlkM&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWoPrzbW9bY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOpB1x5Qzyg

You know what? I am starting to belive that for you to become a zionist, you have to be a full fledged sadists!

I mean, I do not know if any other ideology committed as many massacres as you did yet somehow you guys manage to blame the child you sniped in the chest.

Maaaaaaaaaaaan. Such manipulation needs a high level of sadism to be conducted properly!

What is more interesting is the fact that had anyone dared to come up with the claim that Jews were expelled from Europe and that no one wants them, you and your lackeys would've launched your attack and accusation of anti semitism. You would've shrieked, kicked and whined about how hateful they are. But I guess it is OK for you to make such attacks. After all, you are the chosen one! what applies to you should never ever apply to anyone else!

 

[dddooo]

Quote from WAEL012000:

Again! Show me one UN resolution that the Palestinians defied! You know what?! I am willing to even go further that that! Show me one UN resolution that any Arab state defied aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand GOT AWAY WITH!!

UN resolution 181 partitioning Palestine, the resolutions mandating the disarmament of Hezbollah, resolutions and international laws against wars of aggression, resolution 242 calling for "Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty...", resolutions and international laws regarding the treatement of POWs (captured Israeli soldiers in Lebanon and Gaza), resolutions and international laws against attacks on civilians, laws against torture and mistreatement of prisoners, execution of gays, extra-judicial executions, use of ambulances to transport arms and terrorists etc... I am just scratching the surface wael.

 

[WAEL012000]

Quote from dddooo:

UN resolution 181 partitioning Palestine, the resolutions mandating the disarmament of Hezbollah, resolutions and international laws against wars of aggression, resolution 242 calling for "Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty...", resolutions and international laws regarding the treatement of POWs (captured Israeli soldiers in Lebanon and Gaza), resolutions and international laws against attacks on civilians, laws against torture and mistreatement of prisoners, execution of gays, extra-judicial executions, use of ambulances to transport arms and terrorists etc... I am just scratching the surface wael.

You see what I mean about you lying?! Don't feel like throwing up whenever you stair yourself in the mirror dddooo??

Let us address your lies one by one.

- You claimed that we violated UNSCR 181. How so???

We have accepted the partition of our land. Our declaration of independence even acknowledged that the Palestinian state to be built over the West Bank and Gaza Strip, a mere 22% of what was originally ours. We have agreed, for the sake of peace and building our state to give you 78% of what was originally ours.

You in return, being the zionists you are, a member of an ideology that is colonizing and expansionist in nature was not satisfied!! You are now actively stealing big chunks of land of the 22% that is remaining for us in defiance of UN resolutions prohibiting you from doing so. So who is in violation of UNSCR 181??

- resolutions and international laws against wars of aggression

Your attempt to pass general statements in hope that it will be hard to pin against you is so cheesy. Which resolution against war aggression? Can you refresh my mind by naming one of these resolutions that relate to the Arab Israeli conflict??

- resolution 242

I spit my coffee out when I read this one! Are you telling me that I was asleep when your state agreed to abide by 242 resolution in its entirety.

- resolutions and international laws regarding the treatement of POWs (captured Israeli soldiers in Lebanon and Gaza

And who violated these resolutions??? Are you aware of any violations in regard to these captured Israeli soldiers?? Are you aware, while the rest of the rest of the world isn't of some miss treatment?

On the other hand, how is detaining hundreds of children and women in their jails? Who is been indited for torturing these children? Which state is the one that legalized torture? who has been condemned by the human right commission??? That is right buddy! All of these good acts have been practiced by you and you have been condemned for it.

I will supply you with all of the reports that condemn your practices today.

Scratching the surface??? the only surface you scratched is that of your butt cheeks.

 

[dddooo]

Quote from WAEL012000:

We have accepted the partition of our land. Our declaration of independence even acknowledged that the Palestinian state to be built over the West Bank and Gaza Strip, a mere 22% of what was originally ours.
You kind of did it 50 years after the resolution (so you were not in compliance for 50 years) and your next government (Hamas) quickly refused to honor it.

Your attempt to pass general statements in hope that it will be hard to pin against you is so cheesy. Which resolution against war aggression?
I said resolutions and international laws. Do you seriously claim that the invasion of Israel by 5-7 arab armies in 1948 and a few times after that was in compliance with international laws?

I spit my coffee out when I read this one!
Sorry about that, send me the bill and I'll cover your keffiyeh cleaning charges.

Are you telling me that I was asleep when your state agreed to abide by 242 resolution in its entirety.
You asked me about resolutions the Arab world did not comply with and resolution 242 is one of them. You remember the three nos, don't you, "No peace, no recognition and no negotiations with Israel". That was the arab world's unanimous response to this resolution. In all fairness Egypt and Jordan later complied with it.

Are you aware of any violations in regard to these captured Israeli soldiers
The red cross and other humanitarian organizations must have access to all POWs. Do they?

And lest we forget - terrorism, hostage taking, attacks on civilians, the executions of gays, extra-judicial executions, the treatement of women and many other similar things going on in the arab world and Palestine, these actions are not based on international laws, are they?

Human Rights Watch condemns Hamas, Fatah for war crimes

 

[sandaq]

Quote from WAEL012000:

Arafat did not reject the compensation. It is your Barak that weaseled himself out of the agreement by sending Shron to al Aqsa mosque to cause a riot there. It was your Barak's intention to weasel himself out of it by killing 32 Palestinians in the following three days even though these Palestinians protested by throwing shoes and chairs only.

How many times have you tald this ugly lie to your self and your close relatives?

I'm sure that in plaestine, the proper response for someone's expressing his right to travel freely in his land, would be to call the mobs out. In normal countries people still have the right to travel.

When thousands of people gather on the main roads and advance to a populated jewish city, trashing everything in there way, including bus stops, traffic lights and cars, holding rocks as big as footballs, stoning and insuring more then 50 police officers, throwing bottles with gasoline and burning tires, we eventually shoot to kill.


Here's a pic of palestines throwing shoes

Here they are throwing chairs

And here's another one. You can see the shoes and chairs on the road

 

[2cents]

thanks for that link Wael... http://mondediplo.com/2000/09/08campdavid


".......

Earlier on, the Israeli negotiator had said: "You don’t have the power to get what you’re asking for, so be realistic and take what you’re offered".

....

As far as Israel is concerned, UN Resolution 194, affirming the refugees’ right of return, still means the destruction of the state of Israel. Even so, Israel put forward its "contribution" to the committee towards a solution of the problem: absorbing 5-10,000 refugees over 10 years, or else several thousand in one go.

What about the compensation also expected under Resolution 194? At one session of the committee, the following exchange of views took place:

Yasser Abed Rabbo, for the Palestinians: "We expect to be repaid for the property of the refugees, administered by the Israeli official responsible for abandoned Palestinian property. In 1949 a tripartite committee [British/French/Turkish] estimated the value of this property at £1,124,000,000 sterling [today’s value is several hundred billion dollars.- A.K.]. The refugees must start to receive compensation by using those funds."

Elyakim Rubinstein, for the Israelis: "These funds no longer exist. We have used them up. It is up to the international community to create funds for this."

Return of the refugees’ property was also categorically refused. What is more, only a part of the international funds would go to the Palestinian refugees. The other part, according to Israel, should go to compensating "Jewish refugees who fled the Arab countries" after 1948. This met with stupefaction and bitterness on the part of the Palestinian team: "Not only did these new immigrants move into the houses whose owners had been thrown out or had fled the massacres, but they want to indemnify them at our expense."

Abed Rabbo: "Why did you not ask Egypt for reparations during the peace talks?"

Rubinstein: "We decided to keep this subject for the talks on the Palestinian refugees."

Abed Rabbo: "I protest. This problem has nothing to do with us. Bring it up with the Moroccan authorities, the Yemenis and so on."

It would be a difficult task, for the Jews who emigrated from the Arab countries did so with strong encouragement and massive aid from Israel. Shlomo Hillel, a former Labour minister and president of the Knesset who himself comes from Iraq, has declared several times that he was by no means a refugee, but a Zionist immigrant (7). A year ago the World Sephardi Federation distributed, in collaboration with the office of the Israeli prime minister, tens of thousands of forms to register the property of Jews left in Arab countries. It was said in the clearest possible terms that the aim of this exercise was not to indemnify the immigrants, but to give the government a card for the talks with the Palestinians."



talk about fairness...


well i guess all it means is that Israel's zionist leadership is not "ready" to make a proper offer on the Right or Return / Compensation issue and i can't say thats a surprise... brickheads are brickheads after all...

... a zionist hand assassinated Rabin... right now they are still under the wing of the most antagonistic prez the US has had in decades, which suits them well, but a time will come... and since the only language they seem to understand is power, sadly the only option for now is to continue to destroy their power base internally - via the jewry - and externally wherever it is... and that clearly points towards the US...

let the show continue... if you guys wanted to provoke a massive confrontation against the arab world to weaken it further and for hundreds of years you wouln't do anything different... a false flag op here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair , a provocation there http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident ... it must feel good to be your friends...

problem is, we know your ways... cause they are not so subtle...

adios brickheads!

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1503701&highlight=brickheads#post1503701

 

[2cents]

Now to people who believe a "just" compensation can be found for repairing an injustice and asking people to waive a basic human right as sanctioned by UNGA 194 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_General_Assembly_Resolution_194 (and that should also apply imo to Jews who were evicted from arab countries and would be willing to return once the dust has settled... )

independent of whether you think it can be realistically achieved or not, what would be the sort of formula YOU would personally entertain / consider "fair", if you or one of your now-deceased ancestors had been deprived of his/her land and properties, and you were asked to abandon all claims and forever stay away from the land that once belonged to you and/or your ancestors for centuries and centuries... ?


i'd suggest:

a. NPV of confiscated land and properties' values + NPV of prevailing "rents" for equivalent land and properties - this is just standard compensation for stolen property...
+ x% moral damages award tbd

b. one-off indemnity for waiving the "right of return" itself

 

[dddooo]

Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami on Wednesday clarified Israel's position on the return of and possible compensation for Palestinian refugees.

"Palestinians will return ... to the state of Palestine," Ben-Ami said. "They will return ... once there is a deal.

"There will be an international commission that will raise the necessary funds" to compensate the refugees, he said. "Israel will be one of the donor countries."
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/01/03/mideast.07/

Following are excerpts of U.S. President Bill Clinton's remarks
"All refugees should receive compensation from the international community for their losses, and assistance in building new lives...But I have made it very clear that the refugees will be a high priority, and that the United States will take a lead in raising the money necessary to relocate them in the most appropriate manner."
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/clintplan.html


What's your fucking problem?

 

[2cents]

cheap talk... if i didn't value Clinton which you probably don't cause he's just not your hardball crush'em all arab scum type guy, i'd say cheap politicians...

how much, can you give me a figure? show me the money then we'll talk...

why do i know its not going to happen with you brickhead?