The right advocates less government. Really?

[CaptainObvious]

So let me see if I have this straight. You guys on the right have no problem with the government dictating whether people have the right to organize, at all, anywhere? The right to have some opportunity to negotiate working conditions, wages and benefits? The right to freedom of expression on labor issues? Everyone must just fall in line and do exactly what the government goon squad tells them to do? You have no problem with the government fabricating or exaggerating issues just to promote a personal agenda of some political ideologue?
Perhaps you can enlighten me on how this is less government intrusion into our personal lives and choices.

 

[Grandluxe]

Actually only lowly peasants debate over more govt or less govt, the elite debate only abt more $$$ or less $$$.

That's all.

 

[pspr]

Quote from CaptainObvious:

So let me see if I have this straight. You guys on the right have no problem with the government dictating whether people have the right to organize, at all, anywhere? The right to have some opportunity to negotiate working conditions, wages and benefits? The right to freedom of expression on labor issues? Everyone must just fall in line and do exactly what the government goon squad tells them to do? You have no problem with the government fabricating or exaggerating issues just to promote a personal agenda of some political ideologue?
Perhaps you can enlighten me on how this is less government intrusion into our personal lives and choices.

You're not looking for enlightenment, you are looking to distort the issues. The only goon squads I see are coming from the liberal/democrat side.

<img src=http://orangejuiceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/union-workers.jpg>

 

[omegapoint]

Quote from CaptainObvious:

So let me see if I have this straight. You guys on the right have no problem with the government dictating whether people have the right to organize, at all, anywhere? The right to have some opportunity to negotiate working conditions, wages and benefits? The right to freedom of expression on labor issues? Everyone must just fall in line and do exactly what the government goon squad tells them to do? You have no problem with the government fabricating or exaggerating issues just to promote a personal agenda of some political ideologue?
Perhaps you can enlighten me on how this is less government intrusion into our personal lives and choices.

+10

 

[Mercor]

Quote from CaptainObvious:

So let me see if I have this straight. You guys on the right have no problem with the government dictating whether people have the right to organize, at all, anywhere? The right to have some opportunity to negotiate working conditions, wages and benefits? The right to freedom of expression on labor issues? Everyone must just fall in line and do exactly what the government goon squad tells them to do? You have no problem with the government fabricating or exaggerating issues just to promote a personal agenda of some political ideologue?
Perhaps you can enlighten me on how this is less government intrusion into our personal lives and choices.

The Union employees you are referring to is the Government. Governments do not negotiate financials very well. Governments can negotiate with out concern of long term liabilities or profitability. And they negotiate with third party money.
Also once Government "management" is finished with negotiations they can expect lots of those monies to come back to their campaign chest.

These battle is about Government and their employee unions against the private taxpayer.
This is pure conservatism...all about big Government

 

[Tsing Tao]

Quote from CaptainObvious:

So let me see if I have this straight. You guys on the right have no problem with the government dictating whether people have the right to organize, at all, anywhere? The right to have some opportunity to negotiate working conditions, wages and benefits? The right to freedom of expression on labor issues? Everyone must just fall in line and do exactly what the government goon squad tells them to do? You have no problem with the government fabricating or exaggerating issues just to promote a personal agenda of some political ideologue?
Perhaps you can enlighten me on how this is less government intrusion into our personal lives and choices.

i love these wide paint brushes. where do we (and i'm including myself as a fiscal conservative) say that we advocate the government telling us whether we have the right to organize in protest? the government has nothing to do with it. we DO have the right, and it's explicitly declared in our Freedom of Association. government has no say. if anything, government has the obligation to protect this freedom.

as for the right to negotiate labor conditions, etc....i'm quite sure (but dont have the time to look it up) this is protected under Federal Labor Laws somewhere. regardless, it certainly is not illegal and should be encouraged.

suggesting the "right" is pro-government crackdowns or goon squads...you lost me. normally you're quite the coherent poster, but i have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Quote from Tsing Tao:

i love these wide paint brushes. where do we (and i'm including myself as a fiscal conservative) say that we advocate the government telling us whether we have the right to organize in protest? the government has nothing to do with it. we DO have the right, and it's explicitly declared in our Freedom of Association. government has no say. if anything, government has the obligation to protect this freedom.

as for the right to negotiate labor conditions, etc....i'm quite sure (but dont have the time to look it up) this is protected under Federal Labor Laws somewhere. regardless, it certainly is not illegal and should be encouraged.

suggesting the "right" is pro-government crackdowns or goon squads...you lost me. normally you're quite the coherent poster, but i have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

I'm talking about the slippery slope. Today it's government workers, tomorrow it's labor across the board. Right now in Indiana the Republicans are doing their level best to severely limit labors right to organize and negotiate, and they're wanting to do it to all labor, not just the government workers.
Governments are oppressive, by their very nature. So are corporations. To a degree they have to be, otherwise there is no direction, no rules, no regulation. Kind of like Wall Street, but that's a different subject.:eek:
I'm just saying that what I see happening is certainly a different form of government intrusion, but it's intrusion none the less. The faces are changing, but the game remains the same. I guess my real question is, how can one be so deluded as to think that they are somehow going to be immune from this, regardless of current party ideology? They want it all, from everybody!

 

[AAAintheBeltway]

The main issues in Wisconsin, other than money of course, were:

1. No more union shop for government employees. Is it fair that a citizen of a state has to join a union and pay mandatory dues to it just to hold a job with the state government his taxes fund? I don't think so. It is a form of government-mandated extortion, no different than having to pay mob protection money so they don't trash your store.

2. Unions have to collect their own dues. As part of the above, the state government was deducting union dues from state workers' paychecks to save the union the trouble of collecting. Is that a proper role for government? To act as a debt collector for unions? Unions have their own goons they can use to force defaulting members to pay up.

3. Annual certification. No more one vote, one time, africa-style democracy. Workers would be free to leave the union or decertify it every year. Why shuld corrupt union thugs have a license to steal for perpetuity?

4. No mandatory bargaining on non-pay issues. We elect officals to run the government. They should answer to us, not union bosses.

Bottom line is no one is being forced to take these jobs. If Wisconsin is like most states, government jobs are highly prized. No layoffs, easy work conditions, lavish benefits. What's not to like? The union culture is to insulate their members from any of the competitive pressures the vast majority of workers face. I understand why they want to keep that, but welcome to the real world.

 

[OPTIONAL777]

Can governments, during a time of financial problems, learn to negotiate financials well?

Yep.

The can also learn to cut the military budget in half and keep us safe, they can learn to end no bid contracts with Haliburton, they can learn to do a lot if they have to.

They can also learn to tax the 2% who have 98% of the money at a higher rate...which is something the majority of people favor doing...

So they can do both, they can cut costs, and increase revenue.

No reason we can't go back to tax rates of the past...the rich did fine then, the middle class did fine then, and we had financially solvent governments.

Quote from Mercor:

The Union employees you are referring to is the Government. Governments do not negotiate financials very well. Governments can negotiate with out concern of long term liabilities or profitability. And they negotiate with third party money.
Also once Government "management" is finished with negotiations they can expect lots of those monies to come back to their campaign chest.

These battle is about Government and their employee unions against the private taxpayer.
This is pure conservatism...all about big Government

 

[OPTIONAL777]

Let the union members decide, that would be the American way. To force the union members to end their union, would not be the American way.

It sure appears that from all the protests and public opinion polls, that the majority of Americans believe workers, private or public sector, have the right to bargain collectively and belong to unions.

Quote from AAAintheBeltway:

The main issues in Wisconsin, other than money of course, were:

1. No more union shop for government employees. Is it fair that a citizen of a state has to join a union and pay mandatory dues to it just to hold a job with the state government his taxes fund? I don't think so. It is a form of government-mandated extortion, no different than having to pay mob protection money so they don't trash your store.

2. Unions have to collect their own dues. As part of the above, the state government was deducting union dues from state workers' paychecks to save the union the trouble of collecting. Is that a proper role for government? To act as a debt collector for unions? Unions have their own goons they can use to force defaulting members to pay up.

3. Annual certification. No more one vote, one time, africa-style democracy. Workers would be free to leave the union or decertify it every year. Why shuld corrupt union thugs have a license to steal for perpetuity?

4. No mandatory bargaining on non-pay issues. We elect officals to run the government. They should answer to us, not union bosses.

Bottom line is no one is being forced to take these jobs. If Wisconsin is like most states, government jobs are highly prized. No layoffs, easy work conditions, lavish benefits. What's not to like? The union culture is to insulate their members from any of the competitive pressures the vast majority of workers face. I understand why they want to keep that, but welcome to the real world.