The Perfect Prop Firm

Perfect prop firm...

It can come in 2 flavors

Flavor #1

* Offers remote trading
* Provides reasonable amount of firm capital
* Provides a split of about 40% to 50%
* Committed to long term success
* Doesn't pay a salary
* Offers optional collaboration and information sharing
* Doesn't restrict outside prop activities

Flavor #2

* Pays a reasonably salary, 50k-120k
* Provides strong direct performance bonus (200k+)
* Committed to long term success and training
* Provides strong sharing of information and collaboration
* Strong benefits plan and staying power

Ideal for both flavors
* Supports futures, equities, etc
* Offers a lot of freedom in trading style, product, methodology (futures, options, stocks, all supported). overnight holds, etc.
* Offers either a dedicated researcher or "on call" research resistant for performing quantitative analysis, programming, etc (i.e on call 24/7 but not a dedicated)

I mean its really pretty simple.. you want to work for someone who sees value in what you're doing and has the ability to support you. Of course, Mav talk about how great these prop firms are... well MSFT was going to make me an offer of 120k starting plus 20k stock options. yet, we are pose to believe a prop firm that doesn't even pay a draw is a good deal.. lol.. Sure, it could be a great deal for a kid living at home and not having to pay any bills.. otherwise can't see it.

I feel a lot of the people here are big blow hards. This is why I don't come here as often. Maverick has suggested that the good traders are pulling down 100k per day.

Well, I spoke with 2 prop firms (don't name them maverick!!). One of the firms told me that it was very rare to see a first year trader make more then... 40k first year!! Yet, Maverick wants us to believe that discretionary prop trader are making 100k per day... The other firm indicated they were not going to be hiring anymore discretionary traders and were moving toward using teams of quantitative traders+researchers.

Having spoke with multiple firms and checked what the firms claim to want, the era of the discretionary trader is past and gone.
 
Quote from hitnrun:

most know you traded stocks years back at worldco
you talk about futures all the time. your the options guy
most would think you can care less about stocks or equity prop firms in general from your posts

a new year maybe another door opens right ?
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Well, I'm not terribly interested in these 5k down casino stock models that seem to permeate the marketplace. Those are chop shops. I'm interested in traders that have real edges. I also don't like the 10k education model. To me, an edge is an edge whether it be in stock, options or futures. Doors are always opening and closing in this business.

The purpose of this thread is that there seems to be different groups of people looking for different things. A lot of guys are rate shoppers. Most of them don't actually make money and certainly they don't have an edge. They always believe if only their rates were a little less they would become profitable. Then there are the guys that scream at the idea of splitting profits. Again, the humor in this is that most of those guys don't have any real profits to split anyway.

I have always favored the p&l model. Partly because this separates the good traders from the bad. The commission model just mixes them all together. Using a hybrid approach only seems to piss of both sides of the spectrum. So what I'm trying to see is where the true interest is. On the p&l side, or the rate side. Interesting discussion.
 
Lucias, you talked to two firms. There are over 50 in Chicago. LOL. Look, I don't think you understand the Chicago model. The guys here trade pretty big size. Most of it is algorithmic in some capacity. I told this to you countless times. And I never said first year traders here make 100k a day. I said "GOOD" traders here can make 100k a day. They can also lose that much. They are trading firm capital and very large size. One of the reasons these firms trade so big is the cost of putting a guy in a seat is huge. They can't afford to have him making $500 a day when his seat cost the firm 2k a day. Again, the "chicago" model is unique and not for everyone. And yes, it's very competitive as Don Bright has pointed out.
 
Mav.. let me guess the Chicago model is all about liquidity providing using HFT. Okay.. but thats not discretionary trading.

2 more cents.. for me its all about training/edge, capital, value, and seeing value in my vision. That's pretty simple. A firm that allows remote trading doesn't need to offer as much because the risk taken isn't as much. This is not a hard thing.

The payout again was just an estimate.. it doesn't have to be that much.. It could be lower. Its a matter of math. It also depends on whether there is any edge/training/software offered VS nothing offered.

Also the salary requirement is again just a basic fact thats what it cost to live. I mean go to a firm that doesn't offer a salary requires is a huge cost. Not worth it.
You would need at least 1 year of savings and then only get a split of your profits.. best just to trade own capital. Only way possible to see it is if they have a big edge and can prove they are pulling down mega bucks.
 
I don't do anything with anybody unless it is 50/50. Even 51/49 causes problems.

50/50 and they will work their butt off to buy you out.

I put up the money, you do the work, we split it 50/50.
 
Quote from Lucias:

Mav.. let me guess the Chicago model is all about liquidity providing using HFT. Okay.. but thats not discretionary trading.

2 more cents.. for me its all about training/edge, capital, value, and seeing value in my vision. That's pretty simple. A firm that allows remote trading doesn't need to offer as much because the risk taken isn't as much. This is not a hard thing.

The payout again was just an estimate.. it doesn't have to be that much.. It could be lower. Its a matter of math. It also depends on whether there is any edge/training/software offered VS nothing offered.

Also the salary requirement is again just a basic fact thats what it cost to live. I mean go to a firm that doesn't offer a salary requires is a huge cost. Not worth it.
You would need at least 1 year of savings and then only get a split of your profits.. best just to trade own capital. Only way possible to see it is if they have a big edge and can prove they are pulling down mega bucks.
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Again, here you are making demands. You can't make demands when YOU are the one looking for funding or for a job. And no, not all these firms are liquidity providers. In fact, most of that has gone away to some extent. Margins have gotten too small.

But to answer your next question, no, these firms are not interested in "paying" a guy to buy ES on a moving average cross over signal. I'm sorry Lucias, they just aren't. These firms are looking for "extraordinary" talent. And if you saw the number of resumes they get every day, you would see why.
 
Mav.. I don't use moving average crosses. I am extraordinary talent. You are also one who said the firms are "efficient" yet the market is so inefficient to allow these top traders to pull down 100k.

lol....

Quote from Maverick74:

Again, here you are making demands. You can't make demands when YOU are the one looking for funding or for a job. And no, not all these firms are liquidity providers. In fact, most of that has gone away to some extent. Margins have gotten too small.

But to answer your next question, no, these firms are not interested in "paying" a guy to buy ES on a moving average cross over signal. I'm sorry Lucias, they just aren't. These firms are looking for "extraordinary" talent. And if you saw the number of resumes they get every day, you would see why.
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Quote from Maverick74:

Again, here you are making demands. You can't make demands when YOU are the one looking for funding or for a job. And no, not all these firms are liquidity providers. In fact, most of that has gone away to some extent. Margins have gotten too small.

But to answer your next question, no, these firms are not interested in "paying" a guy to buy ES on a moving average cross over signal. I'm sorry Lucias, they just aren't. These firms are looking for "extraordinary" talent. And if you saw the number of resumes they get every day, you would see why.
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Same firms that went "bust" now demanding super "talent" when I say bust I mean the churning model isnt working but they want MIT grads now!
They dont know what talent is, is talent developing a Algo that makes millions? If so do you think that "guy" is looking at a so called "prop" firm, more like a fund with 1b AUM.

I think best if you can do it alone on IB, longer time to get the compounding, but you can skip the BS.
 
Lucias, I assume you mean "the era of the discretionary trader is past and gone" at prop firms ... as opposed to being over in general. Assuming that is your opinion it sounds correct. Discretionary traders are more likely to be directional than those requiring more infrastructure and as Mav points out the non-directional more algo driven trader requires more leverage.

Quote from Lucias:

Having spoke with multiple firms and checked what the firms claim to want, the era of the discretionary trader is past and gone.

[/B]
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Quote from Lucias:

Mav.. I don't use moving average crosses. I am extraordinary talent. You are also one who said the firms are "efficient" yet the market is so inefficient to allow these top traders to pull down 100k.

lol....
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Lucias, for a good basis trader in treasuries, you can easily make 100k in a day. Hell 500k a day. These markets trade in the trillions Lucias. LOL. The edge is there. Not as easy as it use to be that is for sure. This was just an example.
 
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