The odds of day trading yourself to a profit are lower than you expect"

[ironchef]

I heard from a friend at one of the biggest brokerages that Option Traders are blowing up faster now than in the past, why do you think that is? He's head of the Options Trading Team for one of the biggest companies. I know the answer, anyone want to give it a try why Option Traders are blowing up faster now than three years ago?

My hat off to those profitable day traders. Day trade, I belonged solidly in the 80% group, probably at the bottom 50%.

I actually found options trading easier and a little more profitable. So, options trade got me a lot higher up the curve.

On the other hand, it may not be a fair comparison since I have only been trading options for 3.5 years and didn't just day trade options, I mixed things up with different expirations and didn't close out every option positions at the end of each trading day like what I did when day trading.

 

[Laissez Faire]

That's what all successful people do, no matter what they studied. Has nothing to do with university or not. Has to do with commitment (or maybe even obsession), and the will to succeed. Motivation. Many successful businessmen never went to university.

Correct.

Regarding successful businessmen and entrepreneurs who never went to school or dropped out. We all know they exist.

But I'm curious how many of all successful businessmen and entrepreneurs did go to school?

Just because success has been possible without school doesn't make it a bad idea to go to school.

You're crediting the university education with general maturing of a person. If you enter at 19 years of age and graduate when 23 then of course you're more disciplined - simply because you aren't a pile of raging hormones any longer.

Discipline is inherent rather than learned. I consider myself quite disciplined and don't have a degree. It's probably true that education forces one to learn discipline faster but smarts...not really. It will however kill part of your original thinking making you a standardized tool for the economy in most cases.

For trading you have to have the same approach, work tirelessly with everything else being secondary. But instead of slowly learning general knowledge (for the most part) you will learn a very specific skill. It's also important to start very early as your brain is malleable in your early 20s - it was for me, especially learning fast and creative thinking. I'm glad I dropped out of higher education back then.

Not really. I went to school rather late in life. Many people do. But sure, maturity is a factor.

I also think discipline can be learned and that your interests change later on. Much of my discipline was in fact learned from competing in sports. Something I started doing fairly late in life as well.

I don't see how education will 'kill part of your original thinking and make you a standardized tool'.

Personally, I feel that I've become much more critical and rational after going to school. The work I've done with math surely has made me more logical and also able to grasp more abstract ideas and think differently.

There's always levels of learning and understanding and there's a wide variety of people in school ranging from the smart ones correcting the teacher and the followers who accept most of the stuff they're taught blindly. Like gullible new traders reading trading books.

I was at top of my class in business school and received a personal letter congratulating me with being at the top 7% in class. Working hard, but not THAT hard.

I switched to an engineering degree and found myself working MUCH harder for worse results. But I smartened up and found a way to get back to the top later on. Thanks to learning how to work smarter, being more efficient and getting better at learning and acquiring new information, which is really what university is all about.

But I digress...

Bottom line for me is that I think people who dismiss a higher education as having no value are simply wrong.

 

[Xela]

But I'm curious how many of all successful businessmen and entrepreneurs did go to school?

Just because success has been possible without school doesn't make it a bad idea to go to school.

I agree with you ...

A frequent problem with such conversations is that you'll often find people saying that Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg never graduated from college, as if that somehow justifies the perspective that academic education isn't a benefit. But what the people who point that out usually don't mention is that they were both people whose previous scholastic record was such that they had no problem getting into Harvard in the first place.

We're also all biased by our own perspectives and experience, on questions like this. When you talk to very successful traders (or very successful "anything else") who didn't go to college, because you're discussing it in a place where traders hang out, there's a huge selection-bias among the discussion participants. The ones who didn't go to college and struggled and failed with trading and dropped out of it aren't here to give their opinions.

 

[Mtrader]

Just because success has been possible without school doesn't make it a bad idea to go to school.

Correct. The more education, the more potential knowledge. It does not harm to go to school. But after that it is up to you what you do with it.

 

[Cswim63]

You forgot about the dead guys. The ones who did and didn't go to college. They're not here to give their opinion either. Or trade successfully.

 

[DallasCowboysFan]

In school, you have to have the right answer, and failure is bad. Now tell me how that might affect your ability to scratch a trade, beat your stop, or just take a loss. Also, if you get the right answer consistently you're considered smart. One of the first things my mentor told me was that Eagle Scouts have a very high suicide rate.

Well, if it's wrong.......... it's wrong. Failure is always bad, but only if you don't learn from it.

College gives you the opportunity to learn something new, expose yourself to new ideas, improve your socializing skills, question established ideas and question authority when you learn about historical failures.

You can't learn everything from a book, but you'll learn more from college than you will by sitting behind a computer all day, pissed off at the world.

I have never heard any remarks about suicide and Eagle Scouts. What I have heard is that for the statistical few that reach that level, you are pretty much guaranteed to receive a college scholarship when you graduate high school. Eagle Scouts (Golden Girls as well ) are generally good kids and have above average smarts and leadership skills for their age. It teaches them responsibility, goal setting and social skills at a young age.

I can't find an appropriate link, but a disproportionate percentage of Fortune 500 CEO's were Eagle Scouts. It's also surprising how many worked at MCD's.
It's a good organization.

----------

1. 181 NASA astronauts were involved in Scouting (57.4% of astronauts). 39 are Eagle Scouts.
2. 36.4 percent of the United States Military Academy (West Point) cadets were involved in Scouting as youth. 16.3 percent of cadets are Eagle Scouts.
3. 22.5 percent of United States Air Force Academy cadets were involved in Scouting as youth. 11.9 percent of cadets are Eagle Scouts.
4. 25 percent of United States Naval Academy (Annapolis) midshipmen were involved in Scouting as youth. 11 percent of midshipmen are Eagle Scouts.
5. 189 members of the 113th Congress participated in Scouting as a youth and/or adult leader. 27 are Eagle Scouts.
6. 18 current U.S. governors participated in Scouting as a youth and/or adult volunteer. Four are Eagle Scouts.

http://brandongaille.com/16-awesome-eagle-scout-statistics/

 

[d08]

Bottom line for me is that I think people who dismiss a higher education as having no value are simply wrong.

It has value but the question is if the value is worth years of your time and in most countries significant debt. It also definitely shapes your thinking because a lot of teaching are subjective and a professor who knows facts can easily persuade a classroom of green students to think one way or the other, rarely will students dispute.
I believe the true value of an education comes from making contacts (fraternities and so forth) and self-confidence from knowing you have a degree.

 

[vanzandt]

 

[SimpleTrades]

View attachment 166143

 

[JesseJamesFinn1]

I am going to spend the next couple of years learning how to trade before i can come up with the capitol to start and a descent plan. When i mentioned to this people, the horror stories i heard.

One lady told me she lost 5 thousand in the market. I asked " how much did you start with." She said "I don't know." I was floored, how can you know what you lost and now what you invested.

Lets be honest for second, most people are dumb. And i don't mean the chew on paste dumb, i mean they sit around and watch keeping up with the kardashian's dumb. They have a bit of money and try an idea it doesn't work out the buy a boat next for a investment?

Most people don't realize you even have to have a plan let alone have one that works. They really believe a banker at the grocery store can give them good investment advice. With as brutal as day trading is it is no wonder people fail.

Yes, that's one of the most thrilling things to realize is people are not willing to study or develop any type of plan when investing or trading. There are so many arrogant individuals who say "I am too busy to research or figure out where to put my retirement and long-term savings, I leave it to my broker" and other individuals who watch Mad Money thinking Jim Crammer their Hero or Money making Messiah! Most people will say crap like "I don't have the amount of time you have to micromanage my account" or when the Market is about to collapse they say during a 20 or 30% meltdown "I am a investor" even if their holdings have stocks showing signs of BK their going to show off they do not "micromanage their holdings' like we do!