The Misguided War on the SAT

[wrbtrader]

Right wingers are t the sharpest tools in the shed. They seem to have a problem in controlling their immediate need for gratification rather considering the long term consequences.

Now instead of the SATs being considered as part of the whole student, the Supreme Court decided it should be a determining factor of each student and presto change-o no more SATs.

The same thing with that stupid praying in school case. Now Satanic clubs have free access to kids.

Morons.

Someone should have said to them...

Be careful of what you wish for.​

Now many universities are getting rid of the SATs/ACTs...temporarily or permanently in favor of Non-Cognitive Skill requirements...others putting less emphasis on the former (SATs/ACTs) with more emphasis on the new requirements...

This could be a reason why many schools have seen an increase in minority enrollment, women enrollment, disability enrollment, and applications including among the top universities in the country after the Supreme Court ruling.

Yet, the real losers are the business of SATs/ACTs (too expensive) although I'm not going to cry for them about the big hit to their revenue stream after the Supreme Court ruling.

wrbtrader

 

[ipatent]

This could be a reason why many schools have seen an increase in minority enrollment, women enrollment, disability enrollment, and applications including among the top universities in the country after the Supreme Court ruling.

Citation needed. The decision was just a few months ago, and colleges are still taking applications for the next academic year.

 

[gwb-trading]

Citation needed. The decision was just a few months ago, and colleges are still taking applications for the next academic year.

After attempting to search for information on enrollment changes over the past months/years, I will have to agree. There is no information out showing an increase in minority enrollment, women enrollment, and disability enrollment due to Supreme Court case or due to schools not using the SAT/ACT -- looking at numbers. The percentage of women enrollment and disability enrollment appears to be flat. The non-Asian minority enrollment is down. There are gains in enrollment being made by whites and Asians when looking at the top university figures.

While there are articles making specious claims about improvements in minority enrollment, women enrollment, and disability enrollment at top universities. The actual figures show it does not exist. There is also a need to define what is a "top university" (every large university claims to be a "top university") -- however to actual figures show the same results no matter how big the set of U.S. "top universities" you choose.

Bottom Line: IMO the move away from SAT/ACT tests for enrollment has hurt non-Asian minority enrollment at top universities. It is too early to tell the impact of the Supreme Court ruling.

 

[wrbtrader]

Citation needed. The decision was just a few months ago, and colleges are still taking applications for the next academic year.

First of all, no citation was implied or given. I have been stating my personal experiences since last summer while traveling with my teenagers to several top universities in the United States and meeting with academic guidance counselors of those universities.

With that said, I am fully aware of the history of bans on affirmative action in academic requirements into a University as I've noted to you specifically in past discussions (please review my discussion with you about California in one of your prior threads) although I will be more specific this time...

Affirmative action state by state in the last three decades. These states include California in 1996, Washington in 1998, Michigan in 2006, Nebraska in 2008, and Arizona in 2010. In 1996, the US Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit in Hopwood v Texas banned affirmative action across its jurisdiction: Texas, Mississippi, and Louisiana...​

The enrolment of racial minorities at those schools declines if they are located in states that ban affirmative action.​

The largest effects are felt at the most selective flagship universities, like the University of California (UC) Berkeley, UCLA and the University of Michigan. All of these schools self-reported dramatic declines in representation, particularly among Black, Hispanic, and Native American students.

According to this data, under-represented groups declined by 12% across the University of California system. At the University of Michigan, Black and Native undergraduate enrolment fell by 44% and 90%, respectively, in the years following the affirmative action ban.​

My point with the above historical info...the bans on Affirmative Action are not new and have been occurring in many states across America for many years...long before the Supreme Court got involved.

Further, the above bans resulted in enrollment declines long before the Supreme Court ruling...a ruling many experts say will only impact a minority of schools (the schools the ban was targeting) in the U.S. that still used affirmative action or lied that they were not using affirmative action that negatively impacted Asian minorities.

In contrast, since the Supreme Court ruling, there has been an increase in Universities not using SATs/ACTs for entrance into college...

Seven of the above Universities were visited by my teenagers and me this past summer. The academic guidance counselors stated the expected enrollment has increased for minorities, women, and the disabled despite the Supreme Court ruling...several of these guidance counselors were in fact...Asian and they openly discussed the "fairness" of the Supreme Court ruling...

Something that you know from prior discussions is that I do agree with the Supreme Court decision although I understand there are ways around the Supreme Court ruling to help increase diversity at University campuses.

Universities from the above list that I'm now citing as my source...Brown, Cornell, John Hopkins, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, and Notre Dame.​

Not listed above that was visited...was Stanford and it's listed as a school with increased minority applications & accepted. Also, not listed above is the increasing enrollment of minorities/women at our military universities (specifically discussed in another thread) that is not impacted by the Supreme Court ruling.

My teenage daughter (a volleyball player) plans to follow in her mother's footsteps by enrolling at West Point Academy. We visited a Republican politician (college buddy...roommate for one year) to remind him with a firm handshake that I will be asking for his recommendation letter in a few more years.

We visited West Point too for personal reasons to say hello to a close family friend.

https://www.bestcolleges.com/news/a...mies-exempt-from-affirmative-action-decision/​

Now back to traditional top universities, Stanford is located in California...a state that banned affirmative action back in 1996.

Although the acceptance rate at Stanford for Native Americans is a small 0.88%...it has doubled in the past year and is expected to double again in the fall of 2024 in an effort to reach +900 Native American students (counselor's exact words).​

Yet, despite increases at certain top universities mainly due to the efforts of academic staff that are minorities and increasing too...nationwide...Native Americans in higher education are declining...has been declining long before the Supreme Court ruling.​

Fortunately, several states like California 2022 are offering "Free Tuition" for Native American students to help increase the enrollment of Native American students in their state in hopes of increasing enrollment into higher education. Other states doing the same are New Mexico, Oregon, Minnesota, and some universities in Colorado.

Yet, there is a problem (mismanagement) with these "free tuition programs" but that's another discussion.

wrbtrader

 

[wrbtrader]

First of all, no citation was implied or given. I have been stating my personal experiences since last summer while traveling with my teenagers to several top universities in the United States and meeting with academic guidance counselors of those universities.

With that said, I am fully aware of the history of bans on affirmative action in academic requirements into a University as I've noted to you specifically in past discussions (please review my discussion with you about California in one of your prior threads) although I will be more specific this time...

Affirmative action state by state in the last three decades. These states include California in 1996, Washington in 1998, Michigan in 2006, Nebraska in 2008, and Arizona in 2010. In 1996, the US Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit in Hopwood v Texas banned affirmative action across its jurisdiction: Texas, Mississippi, and Louisiana...​

The enrolment of racial minorities at those schools declines if they are located in states that ban affirmative action.​

The largest effects are felt at the most selective flagship universities, like the University of California (UC) Berkeley, UCLA and the University of Michigan. All of these schools self-reported dramatic declines in representation, particularly among Black, Hispanic, and Native American students.

According to this data, under-represented groups declined by 12% across the University of California system. At the University of Michigan, Black and Native undergraduate enrolment fell by 44% and 90%, respectively, in the years following the affirmative action ban.​

My point with the above historical info...the bans on Affirmative Action are not new and have been occurring in many states across America for many years...long before the Supreme Court got involved.

Further, the above bans resulted in enrollment declines long before the Supreme Court ruling...a ruling many experts say will only impact a minority of schools (the schools the ban was targeting) in the U.S. that still used affirmative action or lied that they were not using affirmative action that negatively impacted Asian minorities.

In contrast, since the Supreme Court ruling, there has been an increase in Universities not using SATs/ACTs for entrance into college...

View attachment 331667

Seven of the above Universities were visited by my teenagers and me this past summer. The academic guidance counselors stated the expected enrollment has increased for minorities, women, and the disabled despite the Supreme Court ruling...several of these guidance counselors were in fact...Asian and they openly discussed the "fairness" of the Supreme Court ruling...

Something that you know from prior discussions is that I do agree with the Supreme Court decision although I understand there are ways around the Supreme Court ruling to help increase diversity at University campuses.

Universities from the above list that I'm now citing as my source...Brown, Cornell, John Hopkins, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, and Notre Dame.​

Not listed above that was visited...was Stanford and it's listed as a school with increased minority applications & accepted. Also, not listed above is the increasing enrollment of minorities/women at our military universities (specifically discussed in another thread) that is not impacted by the Supreme Court ruling.

My teenage daughter (a volleyball player) plans to follow in her mother's footsteps by enrolling at West Point Academy. We visited a Republican politician (college buddy...roommate for one year) to remind him with a firm handshake that I will be asking for his recommendation letter in a few more years.

We visited West Point too for personal reasons to say hello to a close family friend.

https://www.bestcolleges.com/news/a...mies-exempt-from-affirmative-action-decision/​

Now back to traditional top universities, Stanford is located in California...a state that banned affirmative action back in 1996.

View attachment 331668

Although the acceptance rate at Stanford for Native Americans is a small 0.88%...it has doubled in the past year and is expected to double again in the fall of 2024 in an effort to reach +900 Native American students (counselor's exact words).​

Yet, despite increases at certain top universities mainly due to the efforts of academic staff that are minorities and increasing too...nationwide...Native Americans in higher education are declining...has been declining long before the Supreme Court ruling.​

Fortunately, several states like California 2022 are offering "Free Tuition" for Native American students to help increase the enrollment of Native American students in their state in hopes of increasing enrollment into higher education. Other states doing the same are New Mexico, Oregon, Minnesota, and some universities in Colorado.

Yet, there is a problem (mismanagement) with these "free tuition programs" but that's another discussion.

wrbtrader

I forgot to mention another prior discussion...the diversity enrollment efforts of Asian students at our military academies and associated ROTC programs have dramatically increased the number of Asian officers in our military ranks...a racial and ethnic diversity goal of the U.S. military. Increases from +20% to 40% in our officer rankings depending upon the military branch.

If the Supreme Court gets involved and rules against our military diversity programs...we will see a decline in the number of Asian military officers and the number of officers from other minority groups.​

Unfortunately, there have also been increasing cases of bullying/hazing of Asian cadets in our military.

Diversity in our military is an asset and strength of our military.

wrbtrader

 

[Mercor]

Bottom Line: IMO the move away from SAT/ACT tests for enrollment has hurt non-Asian minority enrollment at top universities. It is too early to tell the impact of the Supreme Court ruling.

I agree......A good score as a minority was automatic acceptance, now they will need to be picked out of a pool

 

[UsualName]

Just to bring this conversation back to its proper base, the SATs were never meant to be a determining factor but a minimum requirement, with each university having their own internal bar for scores. The Supreme Court and conservatives misunderstood this and twisted it to the point the SATs as applied under the Supreme Court’s decision are no longer useful considering colleges have always considered the whole student.

It is expected that initially students of Asian heritage will actually suffer considering a prevailing culture of strong academic performance but like anything else in the world if you want something bad enough they will adapt.

The SATs may very well predict grades but they do not predict leadership, innovation, art, original thought etc. These are the things universities want for students to succeed beyond being a drone worker in life.

 

[gwb-trading]

First of all, no citation was implied or given. I have been stating my personal experiences since last summer while traveling with my teenagers to several top universities in the United States and meeting with academic guidance counselors of those universities.

With that said, I am fully aware of the history of bans on affirmative action in academic requirements into a University as I've noted to you specifically in past discussions (please review my discussion with you about California in one of your prior threads) although I will be more specific this time...

Affirmative action state by state in the last three decades. These states include California in 1996, Washington in 1998, Michigan in 2006, Nebraska in 2008, and Arizona in 2010. In 1996, the US Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit in Hopwood v Texas banned affirmative action across its jurisdiction: Texas, Mississippi, and Louisiana...​

The enrolment of racial minorities at those schools declines if they are located in states that ban affirmative action.​

The largest effects are felt at the most selective flagship universities, like the University of California (UC) Berkeley, UCLA and the University of Michigan. All of these schools self-reported dramatic declines in representation, particularly among Black, Hispanic, and Native American students.

According to this data, under-represented groups declined by 12% across the University of California system. At the University of Michigan, Black and Native undergraduate enrolment fell by 44% and 90%, respectively, in the years following the affirmative action ban.​

My point with the above historical info...the bans on Affirmative Action are not new and have been occurring in many states across America for many years...long before the Supreme Court got involved.

Further, the above bans resulted in enrollment declines long before the Supreme Court ruling...a ruling many experts say will only impact a minority of schools (the schools the ban was targeting) in the U.S. that still used affirmative action or lied that they were not using affirmative action that negatively impacted Asian minorities.

In contrast, since the Supreme Court ruling, there has been an increase in Universities not using SATs/ACTs for entrance into college...

View attachment 331667

Seven of the above Universities were visited by my teenagers and me this past summer. The academic guidance counselors stated the expected enrollment has increased for minorities, women, and the disabled despite the Supreme Court ruling...several of these guidance counselors were in fact...Asian and they openly discussed the "fairness" of the Supreme Court ruling...

Something that you know from prior discussions is that I do agree with the Supreme Court decision although I understand there are ways around the Supreme Court ruling to help increase diversity at University campuses.

Universities from the above list that I'm now citing as my source...Brown, Cornell, John Hopkins, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, and Notre Dame.​

Not listed above that was visited...was Stanford and it's listed as a school with increased minority applications & accepted. Also, not listed above is the increasing enrollment of minorities/women at our military universities (specifically discussed in another thread) that is not impacted by the Supreme Court ruling.

My teenage daughter (a volleyball player) plans to follow in her mother's footsteps by enrolling at West Point Academy. We visited a Republican politician (college buddy...roommate for one year) to remind him with a firm handshake that I will be asking for his recommendation letter in a few more years.

We visited West Point too for personal reasons to say hello to a close family friend.

https://www.bestcolleges.com/news/a...mies-exempt-from-affirmative-action-decision/​

Now back to traditional top universities, Stanford is located in California...a state that banned affirmative action back in 1996.

View attachment 331668

Although the acceptance rate at Stanford for Native Americans is a small 0.88%...it has doubled in the past year and is expected to double again in the fall of 2024 in an effort to reach +900 Native American students (counselor's exact words).​

Yet, despite increases at certain top universities mainly due to the efforts of academic staff that are minorities and increasing too...nationwide...Native Americans in higher education are declining...has been declining long before the Supreme Court ruling.​

Fortunately, several states like California 2022 are offering "Free Tuition" for Native American students to help increase the enrollment of Native American students in their state in hopes of increasing enrollment into higher education. Other states doing the same are New Mexico, Oregon, Minnesota, and some universities in Colorado.

Yet, there is a problem (mismanagement) with these "free tuition programs" but that's another discussion.

wrbtrader

Now many top universities -- such as Dartmouth -- are reversing course and requiring the SAT/ACT tests for admission. Universities are finding that they can't properly compare students for admission based on merit unless there a common barometer for comparing their academic capabilities.

Dartmouth reinstates SAT/ACT scores, drawing attention to role of standardized tests
Schools nationwide got rid of SATs and ACTs amid the COVID-19 pandemic.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/dartmouth...ttention-role-standardized/story?id=106987409

'Dartmouth, which temporarily halted SAT and ACT requirements during the pandemic, said it is returning to the requirement because "SAT/ACTs can be especially helpful in identifying students from less-resourced backgrounds who would succeed at Dartmouth but might otherwise be missed in a test-optional environment."'

 

[wrbtrader]

Now many top universities -- such as Dartmouth -- are reversing course and requiring the SAT/ACT tests for admission. Universities are finding that they can't properly compare students for admission based on merit unless there a common barometer for comparing their academic capabilities.

Dartmouth reinstates SAT/ACT scores, drawing attention to role of standardized tests
Schools nationwide got rid of SATs and ACTs amid the COVID-19 pandemic.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/dartmouth...ttention-role-standardized/story?id=106987409

'Dartmouth, which temporarily halted SAT and ACT requirements during the pandemic, said it is returning to the requirement because "SAT/ACTs can be especially helpful in identifying students from less-resourced backgrounds who would succeed at Dartmouth but might otherwise be missed in a test-optional environment."'

I knew one of them would reinstate SAT/ACT scores. It will be interesting to see what others do especially if Dartmouth start to see increasing applications/enrollments in comparison to those that still have not reinstated their SAT/ACT requirements.

On another front, a lawsuit against West Point Academy had failed to get West Point to stop using "race" as a way to diversify its military ranks.

https://thedailyrecord.com/2024/02/...using-race-as-a-factor-in-admissions-for-now/

Just in case you're curious...

West Point heralds the diversity of its student body on its website. The most recently enrolled class, slated to graduate in 2027...more than 1,240 U.S. citizens and 14 international students, including 247 women, and 463 minorities.

Roughly 38 percent are racial minorities, including 127 African Americans, 137 Hispanic Americans, 170 Asian Americans, and 18 Native Americans.

https://www.westpoint.edu/news/press-releases/class-2027-enter-west-point​

In comparison to when my ex-spouse was a cadet at West Point...Asian Americans have benefitted the most from using race as a factor. I saw the same when I graduated from OCS because there are more Asian American / Indigenous American / Hispanic American / Black American Army Officers than there were when I was in the military.

Also, there was a military study of forces around the world...countries with the best-prepared soldiers are also the most diversified.

By the way, if you do the math above to calculate the number of minority students. It's 452 minorities but it does not equal the stated 463 minorities. Simply, the missing 11 minority students may have transferred to another university at the very last minute.

wrbtrader

 

[wrbtrader]