The military is being used to protect our freedoms

Quote from Max E. Pad:



I highly doubt any german would have said that they would readily engage in the mass extermination of Jews prior to the holocaust. (QUOTE]

I think you are wrong on this one.treaty of Versailles was one of the reasons.
Read up on 'Pogroms" in other countries etc. it was fairly common to hate Jews prior to WW2 and right after it.
 
Yet despite your unyielding insistence that al-Awlaki's killing violated the Constitution and was murder, you admitted you probably would NOT have refused to do your part had you been part of the mission.
Quote from DAS Trader:

As long as the order is lawful you have a valid point. Unlawful orders should be ignored and both you and Magna left that out. I see he added a couple of paragraphs since I responded to his initial comment but that changes nothing. A lawful order is defined as an order given by a competent higher authority that any reasonable man would not consider to be contrary to the laws of the United States of America.

Firing on unarmed civilians is considered murder 'round these parts.
 
Quote from DAS Trader:

And those Nazis that were captured were tried, convicted of war crimes, and hung. Their defense of "just following orders" did not work. Could similar atrocities occur here? Sure. I don't see it happening right now but a complete breakdown of society could change all that. That still wouldn't change the fact that Americans have the Constitutional right to due process under the law and summary executions would still be murder. Any soldiers that followed orders to summarily execute unarmed civilians would be murderers, plain and simple.

in a complete breakdown, Organized Crime takes over the remaining half of the economy and everything is fine... there's Law, there's order, they are nice. but sometimes they coexist and sometimes not so much...
 
Quote from pspr:

Max, Germany was also trying to reassert itself after their humiliation in WWI. I think that could have been a big factor in the German people following Hitler.

As thinking people, I'm sure you, as I have, thought if you were born into Germany in the 1920's would you have been the righteous person we think we are today or would we have just gone along and become murderous Nazi's ourselves?

I thought about this a lot when I was young and my conclusion is that given those circumstances and indoctrination and without any other strong religious or right/wrong training from parents, church or school, we (or at least I) would probably turn out no better than those who became Nazi murderers.

I would like to think that conclusion is wrong, but I fear it is not.


This is a great thread and I want to comment more, from a general perspective, later.

This particular post caught my attention because it addresses an event in the human laboratory people routinely ignore and dismiss as 'implausible' because it falls too far outside conventional experience. IOW, "it can't happen here".

The reality is Hitler's Germany was a very upright, moral, Christian people, long before (and after) 1930. The untold side, as pspr alluded too, was the Treaty of Versailles bankrupted Germany, which led to the debauchment of the Mark, hyper-inflation, then wholesale economic collapse. Naturally, German families were destroyed in the process which created widespread resentment and outrage - fertile ground the Nazi's seized on to take root, and rise to power. The moral here is humans profoundly underestimate the complete 180 they can make when bad things happen to them.

What's more important, and within the vein of this thread, is the US becomes Greece in 3 years. The US Dollar could easily lose reserve status in ~4 years. While America won't be faced with a Weimar-like collapse, the routing will be absolutely severe, similar in magnitude to the Great Depression. This, in a time, where the American people are far less moral, upright and financially independent than they were 50 years ago, let alone 100. This will also happen within the context of a Federal Government that has given itself Hitlarian power to arrest American citizens and imprison them indefinitely (without a trail), to spy on Americans without a warrant, to kill American citizens on a whim, again, without a trial. Now, there's legislation tabled within the house to strip Americans of citizenship if deemed an enemy of the State. The Feds are preparing to go after American citizens, on American soil, identical to 1930's Germany. Except in this instance, the "undesirables" won't be Jews or Gypsy's; it will be patriots, gun-owners and anyone who supports the Constitution (the anti-thesis of the naked executive power already passed). People who say it can't happen, it has. People who say it can't happen here, it's happening, right now, legislatively. Congress and Obama are setting the table for something extremely horrible. People better wake up now, because in a year or two, it will be too late.

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Quote from achilles28:

...The Feds are preparing to go after American citizens, on American soil, identical to 1930's Germany. Except in this instance, the "undesirables" won't be Jews or Gypsy's; it will be patriots, gun-owners and anyone who supports the Constitution (the anti-thesis of the naked executive power already passed). People who say it can't happen, it has. People who say it can't happen here, it's happening, right now, legislatively.

Yep, and most of the sheeple are still arguing about gay rights, stem cells, abortion, religion, political correctness, racism and other frivolous non sense.
 
Quote from Lucrum:

Yep, and most of the sheeple are still arguing about gay rights, stem cells, abortion, religion, political correctness, racism and other frivolous non sense.

Exactly. There's so many disturbing angles to the recent flurry of police state legislation, it's crazy. At the top of heap, there's the near-total media blackout on it and the sheeples near total ignorance. And then, even amongst those who are informed, where's the response? I'm not even sure apathy is the right word. It's like it doesn't even register. The only candidate in the race who actively opposes all this crap is Ron Paul. And both sides of the media are fixated on character assassination with no regard to his charitable medical work for blacks and pro-minority stance (anti-drug war, anti capital punishment, anti war). It's just a pure smear campaign. I'm watching CNN right now. The coverage is all Santorum and Romney. And when they finally mention Paul, they always throw in remarks about the letters.
 
Quote from Max E. Pad:

The military is being used to protect our freedoms

This is the biggest self serving load of shit that politicians have ever given us, the other day that useless piece of crap Rick Santorum said the reason that we were attacked on 9/11 was supposedly because a bunch of people who live in caves in the middle east, all of a sudden got up one day and thought about how pissed off they were that people who live on the opposite side of the planet were free to do whatever they want.

Before too many people attack me, I want to say I have the utmost respect for everyone who has fought and died for this country, this is not an attack on them, I am pissed off because I see them being abused by politicians who clearly do not have the goal of freedom in America in mind.

With that said how could any logical person buy into the shit that politicians are selling in order to propogate the myth that our military actions abroad are “protecting our freedoms.”

When was the last time in history that ANY COUNTRY posed a serious threat to freedom in America? Last one I can think of is the Cuban missile crisis, and that was solved without ever firing a bullet.

On the other hand, the same politicians who have told us our military actions are based on “protecting our freedoms” have used the fact that we are at war to justify their actions in stripping us of our most fundamental freedoms, and that is the freedom from being unfairly attacked by our own government.

Since 9/11 the government has given themselves the right to do whatever they want, from warrantless wiretaps, to indefinite detention by government, to TSA molestation, to flat out killing American citizens without a trial. All this happens under the headline of "protecting our freedoms" We are getting fucked in the ass by neo con chicken hawks, and For all the pissing and moaning liberals do about guys like Bush and Cheney, they sure seem to disappear in a heartbeat whenever a democrat is in charge, and there really is no discernible difference between the two parties when it comes to this.

I have read tons of attacks on Ron Paul over foreign policy in the last few weeks, and I find it hard to believe that people would not atleast take a second to seriously think about how Americans have benefited from our military actions abroad, and what the government has done to us based on these wars. I cant understand how a logical person would not at the very least question a large part of our military actions abroad.

It seems very easy for people to dismiss Ron Pauls idea of complete isolationism as crazy, and maybe that isnt the right answer, but take a look at every single war we have gotten into going back to world war 2 and try honestly asking yourself whether or not the benefit outweighs the cost,in terms of money, freedom, and most importantly the loss of life from the courageous people who have fought these wars for us.

The biggest threat to our freedom is not some guy living in a cave abroad, its our own government, and its the threat that we will go broke, and America will collapse, and while entitlements and domestic spending are a huge problem, military and foreign spending is the other side of the busted equation.

I cant help but think that Osama Bin Laden is currently rotting in hell with a smile on his face thinking he couldnt even imagine pulling off the destruction our own government has caused us since 9/11.

'When i hear a politician brag about the military as "protecting our freedom" i just want to punch them right in the dick for using peoples lives to fuel their political agenda.

Fantastic post. All true. Our Government has done more to destroy the Constitution and Bill of Rights than Bin Laden ever did. It's the Government that's the biggest threat to our freedom. Not some camel jockeys in a cave or praying in a Madras. The notion we have to surrender our freedoms to save them, is 1984 schizoid double-speak. How can we "save" freedom if we no longer have it? This is beyond comprehension.

Here is my commentary, as to the state of affairs, as of Jan 3, 2012. I wrote this in another thread, but its entirely relevant.

Obama signed the NDAA into law New Years Eve, which gives the US military power to arrest and imprison American citizens without a lawyer or trial, forever. There's another bill in the House that strips Americans of citizenship if deemed an enemy of the State, on mere suspicion by the President or Military. Iran is a distraction from the police state grid Congress is nearly done, building around us. FEMA camps were activated in the US 3 weeks ago, with RFQ's gone out to contractors to staff, service and maintain such camps. "Civilian Internment specialist" job postings have gone up on US Army websites. For our military veterans, FEMA is now equipped with blue-force, red-force tracking technology for domestic operations in the US. US Military assets are blue force. Red force? American citizens. People like Lindsay Graham, gave Hitlarian-inspired speeches a couple weeks ago, shouting NO LAWYER FOR ANY AMERICAN that wages war against the US. In his words, the NDAA turns the homeland into "a battlefield". McCain loves it. Carl Levin said Obama pressured him and McCain to ensure Americans were covered by the indefinite military detention provision. They weren't compelled to oblige. But they did. Happily. The Senate passed the NDAA some 90 votes to 8? There is virtually zero coverage in the media. MTV is running ads that compare present-day America to the Jewish roundups in Germany. Shit is going down, extremely fast. On the cyber front, SOPA empowers the Government to wage cyber war against any site deemed a "threat to the United States" or her interests. Again, the language is so broad, the executive has total discretionary control over what sites stay up, and which go down. Our last link to the "outside world" - truth-based news - is alternative news, found only on the net. This is where Ron Pauls support gestated and mushroomed from. Soon, alternative news sites will be blacklisted and the real news, cut off. Just like Ron's campaign, as both ends of the controlled-media spectrum have engaged the Congressman at point blank, to assassinate him from every angle. GOP insiders came out last night and admitted the Iowa Rhino establishment will throw the caucus if Ron is polling first. The Criminals in DC are racing to crush the Bill of Rights, and anyone who stands for it. The flurry of police state legislation in the past 2 years, especially the past few months, target American Citizens as the new enemy. Iran is a joke. A non-event. A 2 dollar midget at the circus sideshow. Who gives a fuck. We are on the verge of the fourth Reich. No shit. No hyperbole.
 
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