The military is being used to protect our freedoms

Actually the holocaust is clear proof that people will commit heinous acts, if the orders come from an authority figure, and they dont have a choice, besides death.

I dont doubt what you have said about your Son and Nephew being people of character,(you must be very proud of their service) who would not fire on their own citizens. The problem is that it doesnt simply end with the people of character like your son saying they wont do it and walking away.

Inevitably what would happen is the people who would take the commanders orders, regardless of what the orders were, would overrun the people in the military who would not obey, and people like your son and nephew would be given the option to either start killing americans, and live, OR fight and kill their brothers in the army, who are more then willing to kill americans, as long as it came from an order up top.

So those people would not be presented with a simple option of whether or not they want to kill american civilians, they would be presented with the option of killing american civilians, or killing their brothers in the army.

Germany was a first world civilized, well educated society prior to the holocaust, yet Hitler and the rest of the S.S. was able to convince germans to enact the mass murder of millions of jews. Im sure there was tons of people of character who didnt want to be there. and didnt want any part of mass murder, but the reason it was able to go through is because a large enough percentage was willing to follow out the orders if it came from a position of authority, and the people of character who did not want to do it had the option of either dying, or continuing the madness

The ones who chose death disappeared, the ones who went along with hitlers game plan got to live, so eventually all you are left with is the people willing to enact the mass murdering game plan.





Quote from Lucrum:

I think you're right. As someone already pointed out "following orders" was not a legal defense in the Nuremberg trials.
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Quote from Max E. Pad:

Actually the holocaust is clear proof that people will commit heinous acts, if the orders come from an authority figure, and they dont have a choice, besides death.

I dont doubt what you have said about your Son and Nephew being people of character, who would not fire on their own citizens. The problem is that it doesnt simply end with the people of character like your son saying they wont do it and walking away.

Inevitably what would happen is the people who would take the commanders orders, regardless of what the orders were, would overrun the people in the military who would not obey, and people like your son and nephew would be given the option to either start killing americans, and live, OR fight the majority of people in the army who are more then willing to kill americans, as long as it came from an order up top.

So those people would not be presented with a simple option of whether or not they want to kill american civilians, they would be presented with the option of killing american civilians, or killing their brothers in the army.

Germany was a first world civilized, well educated society prior to the holocaust, yet Hitler and the rest of the S.S. was able to convince germans to enact the mass murder of millions of jews. Im sure there was tons of people of character who didnt want to be there. and didnt want any part of mass murder, but the reason it was able to go through is because a large enough percentage was willing to follow out the orders if it came from a position of authority, and the people of character who did not want to do it had the option of either dying, or continuing the madness.
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And those Nazis that were captured were tried, convicted of war crimes, and hung. Their defense of "just following orders" did not work. Could similar atrocities occur here? Sure. I don't see it happening right now but a complete breakdown of society could change all that. That still wouldn't change the fact that Americans have the Constitutional right to due process under the law and summary executions would still be murder. Any soldiers that followed orders to summarily execute unarmed civilians would be murderers, plain and simple.
 
Dont know what you are getting at, i was never trying to argue about the legality of the whole thing. I was pointing out the way that mass psychology works.

"any soldier that followed orders to execute unarmed civilians would be murderers"

Do you actuallty think that prior to the holocaust it was legal to execute unarmed civilians?


Quote from DAS Trader:

And those Nazis that were captured were tried, convicted of war crimes, and hung. Their defense of "just following orders" did not work. Could similar atrocities occur here? Sure. I don't see it happening right now but a complete breakdown of society could change all that. That still wouldn't change the fact that Americans have the Constitutional right to due process under the law and summary executions would still be murder. Any soldiers that followed orders to summarily execute unarmed civilians would be murderers, plain and simple.
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Quote from Max E. Pad:

Dont know what you are getting at, i was never trying to argue about the legality of the whole thing. I was pointing out the way that mass psychology works.
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Fair enough. Time for a break :)
 
Max, Germany was also trying to reassert itself after their humiliation in WWI. I think that could have been a big factor in the German people following Hitler.

As thinking people, I'm sure you, as I have, thought if you were born into Germany in the 1920's would you have been the righteous person we think we are today or would we have just gone along and become murderous Nazi's ourselves?

I thought about this a lot when I was young and my conclusion is that given those circumstances and indoctrination and without any other strong religious or right/wrong training from parents, church or school, we (or at least I) would probably turn out no better than those who became Nazi murderers.

I would like to think that conclusion is wrong, but I fear it is not.
 
This goes exactly to my point, as well as the point Magna was making about how the army would simply follow orders.

In my head i like to think that i am atleast a good enough person that i would never engage in mass murder, but i would imagine every normal human being would say the exact same thing, but the majority of germans were willing to participate in the holocaust in one form or another. I fully agree that i could most likely be manipulated into doing awful things i wouldnt normally dream of, if the situation was right, simply because im willing to accept that im just a normal person, the bottom line is that i will never know for sure until the situation presented itself....nor will anyone else.

I highly doubt any german would have said that they would readily engage in the mass extermination of Jews prior to the holocaust. The fact is that no one knows what they will do until they are put into that situation, and history as well as science has shown us that good people are more then willing to commit heinous acts, as long as the orders to do so comes from an authority figure.

Quote from pspr:

Max, Germany was also trying to reassert itself after their humiliation in WWI. I think that could have been a big factor in the German people following Hitler.

As thinking people, I'm sure you, as I have, thought if you were born into Germany in the 1920's would you have been the righteous person we think we are today or would we have just gone along and become murderous Nazi's ourselves?

I thought about this a lot when I was young and my conclusion is that given those circumstances and indoctrination and without any other strong religious or right/wrong training from parents, church or school, we (or at least I) would probably turn out no better than those who became Nazi murderers.

I would like to think that conclusion is wrong, but I fear it is not.
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Not exactly. I think it would take indoctrination of such beliefs from childhood. Our military is not brainwashed from a young age, nor are they brainwashed to act in any way like this to Americans.

So, I don't think an analogy would apply to my previous post.

Quote from Max E. Pad:

This goes exactly to my point, as well as the point Magna was making about how the army would simply follow orders.

In my head i like to think that i am atleast a good enough person that i would never engage in mass murder, but i would imagine every normal human being would say the exact same thing, but the majority of germans were willing to participate in the holocaust in one form or another. I fully agree that i could most likely be manipulated into doing awful things i wouldnt normally dream of, if the situation was right, simply cause im willing to accept that im just a normal person.....

I highly doubt any german would have said that they would readily engage in the mass extermination of Jews prior to the holocaust. The fact is that no one knows what they will do until they are put into that situation, and history as well as science has shown us that good people are more then willing to commit heinous acts, as long as the orders to do so comes from an authority figure.
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In the Tienanmen Square suppression, the military's role was to "maintain order". The protestors were not armed and were not violent, but were defined by the ruling authority to be a threat to stability.

In that case, the ruling authority always makes certain that the military/police are part of the "us" in the "us vs. them", because they require the force exerted by that strata downward onto the general population.

If the military in the US were ever to do that, then there would be no difference between the US and a country like Syria or Iran (or communist China among plenty of others).

Oddly enough, it would be the military itself, and not some politicians in the US giving orders to suppress the population, that would take or not take that turn if it came.
 
I think the difference is armed and unarmed.We already have unarmed protest with OWS and The Tea Party .In China,Iran,Syria etc the military would have probably been called in to end those movements

Personally I am referring to armed revolution that people like Lucrum is hoping for
 
Quote from Max E. Pad:

Actually the holocaust is clear proof that people will commit heinous acts, if the orders come from an authority figure, and they dont have a choice, besides death.

I dont doubt what you have said about your Son and Nephew being people of character,(you must be very proud of their service) who would not fire on their own citizens. The problem is that it doesnt simply end with the people of character like your son saying they wont do it and walking away.

Inevitably what would happen is the people who would take the commanders orders, regardless of what the orders were, would overrun the people in the military who would not obey, and people like your son and nephew would be given the option to either start killing americans, and live, OR fight and kill their brothers in the army, who are more then willing to kill americans, as long as it came from an order up top.

So those people would not be presented with a simple option of whether or not they want to kill american civilians, they would be presented with the option of killing american civilians, or killing their brothers in the army.

Germany was a first world civilized, well educated society prior to the holocaust, yet Hitler and the rest of the S.S. was able to convince germans to enact the mass murder of millions of jews. Im sure there was tons of people of character who didnt want to be there. and didnt want any part of mass murder, but the reason it was able to go through is because a large enough percentage was willing to follow out the orders if it came from a position of authority, and the people of character who did not want to do it had the option of either dying, or continuing the madness

The ones who chose death disappeared, the ones who went along with hitlers game plan got to live, so eventually all you are left with is the people willing to enact the mass murdering game plan.
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You certainly make some good points Max.

I have no way of knowing what the critical mass for a sustainable revolt/uprising would be. A hundred guys barricaded in a farm house certainly isn't enough. Once past that critical mass though everyone, including military personnel, would have to choose.

Maybe just maybe we can vote out Obama and most congressional incumbents this year and we won't have to eventually find out.
 
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