The main reason why doing business with these get-funded programs is a bad idea...
- Thread starter Laissez Faire
- Start date
Yet they always keep you in the Sim environment, so what's the damn point?
And was it one of the firms we mention in this thread?
As long as FTMO pays you your share of the profits you generate from your trading on their platform in full -- in real cash-- and pays you promptly each time you request a profit withdrawal, then what difference does it make if FTMO has you trading on a sim on your “live” funded account
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It doesn't make a difference if they pay. But there is no doubt a conflict of interest between you and the firm as money earned by the trader is a net loss for the firm. As such, it seems logical that the firm will do whatever it can to avoid you getting paid. Maybe one day you lose connection and your stop-loss isn't triggered or you're suddenly holding into a non-permitted news event, but the firm puts all the blame on you and your account is eliminated.
It may not have been FTMO, but there was an FX firm where some guy made a windfall profit ($200K or so) and the firm refused to pay. He posted about it here and on forexfactory. I don't know what the outcome was, but I believe he was taking legal action.
However, if you actually have a funded real money account there is no conflict of interest. In fact, it's a mutual benefit since the firm will usually get 20 % of your profit. So, if a big shot trader comes along and get funded, keeps trading and generates profits it's a net win for the firm.
For the futures firms it seems like only E2T and TopStep offers a real money account, so it should be an easy choice if one goes down that path.
Never heard of FTMO not paying even on traders who have large recurring profits. The problem in my opinion with E2T is that, allow they offer a regular gauntlet with swing that allows hold over positions that acct size max daily loss limit I believe is only between $1000 to a max of $2500 https://www.earn2trade.com/gauntlet compared to up to a max $20,000 total loss limit and $10,000 daily loss limit on FTMO swing. Also E2T on regular gauntlet "grades" your evaluation based on amount drawdown you had in evaluation--meaning even if you "pass" if your drawdown during eval was high then you might only get 1000, 1250 or 1500 (or max of $2500) whereas FTMO - you pass the evals you get max funding for that account size you did eval on. Also another problem with E2T and Topstep is that they do not offer revolving loss limits below the zero line (meaning you can withdraw all profits and still have max funding). Also on mini-gauntlet E2T and Topstep I believe they use floating drawdowns that follow your profits above the zero line whereas FTMO's fixed drawdowns are always fixed below zero line.
there is no difference if you plan to just make a quick buck and withdraw.
but if you're planning to stay with them long-term and continuously scale up, it's not a wise decision.
there are already several reports that MFF refused to payout b/c they suspected foulplay (using a bot or trade copier). obviously i don't know all the details but if FTMO or MFF were using actual live accounts, they wouldn't need to create all these disclaimers to give them an excuse to not payout when someone happens to make a ton of profits.
the good thing about having actual live accounts is that you don't need to worry about counterparty risk since the counterparty isn't paying out withdrawals from their own chest fund.
Now that being said, the rules on FTMO compared to the futures eval firms like E2T and TST are just so much more favorable to the trader it might be worth the risk to go with them over E2T/TST.
The trailing drawdown on real-time pnl that exists on all the futures eval firms is pure scam. There's a reason why despite so many new players in this space and hence more competition, that one feature hasn't been improved on by competing players.
It's b/c the trailing drawdown based on real-time pnl is their fountain of gold. THAT is how they manage to make so much money easily. It forces traders to cut their winners short meaning whatever +EV strategy they have will become -EV due to the trailing dd based on real-time pnl.
That's why the trailing dd is the lifeblood of these companies; it's how they can get so many traders with profitable strategies to fail their evals.
So personally, i think despite FTMO/MFF's counterparty risk, they're a better alternative to futures eval firms but you should still know the risks.
Yes--exactly- the floating/trailing drawdown is complete BS and creates a riskier scenario in holding on for additional profits within in a session
Here is an example---for simplicity sake-- each account in examples has a $5,000 max daily drawdown and a $100,000 starting account balance
Examples
Topstep Acct and E2T mini-gauntlet - each has a $5,000 floating/trailing drawdown
In the session you are up $10,000 in profit (whether realized or unrealized) - before the end of the session however you lose $5,001 and end the day up $4,999.00 (with an account balance of $104,999) - you have failed - you had a $5,000 drawdown within same session and even though you are profitable on the session you fail because of the floating/trailing drawdown used. There is no next session for you and you need to either pay a reset fee or start another challenge
FTMO account - you have a $5,000 fixed drawdown. In the session you are up $10,000 in profit (whether realized or unrealized) - before the end of the session however you lose $5,001 and end the day up $4,999.00 - you have not failed - you have $4,999 in profits on the day (with an account balance of $104,999). Since FTMO uses a "fixed" drawdown below the zero line your $10,000 profit in the session actually means that now you have that $10,000 added to your $5,000 drawdown (within that same session) and you would now have a $15,000 cushion (within that same session) so if you were up $10,000 on the session ($110,000 balance) you would have to lose $15,000 to go to $95,000 account balance in same session to fail.
(instead of E2T and Topstep where if you go from $110,000 to $105,000 (or less) in same session you have failed)
Also if his was a live funded FTMO account - you could just withdraw the entire $4,999 and be paid your % of profits and then you still have the full $5,000 daily loss limit funding to keep trading with. Whereas in live funded account with E2T and Topstep--if you didnt fail (lets say you stopped before you lost $5,000 intra session and you went from $10,000 profits down to $5,025 in profits and account balance of $105,025. If you request to withdraw the entire $5025 to be paid your % --then your account is closed as you dont have anymore funding (at least that is the way I understand how their live acct works)
Now that being said, the rules on FTMO compared to the futures eval firms like E2T and TST are just so much more favorable to the trader it might be worth the risk to go with them over E2T/TST.
The trailing drawdown on real-time pnl that exists on all the futures eval firms is pure scam. There's a reason why despite so many new players in this space and hence more competition, that one feature hasn't been improved on by competing players.
It's b/c the trailing drawdown based on real-time pnl is their fountain of gold. THAT is how they manage to make so much money easily. It forces traders to cut their winners short meaning whatever +EV strategy they have will become -EV due to the trailing dd based on real-time pnl.
Here is an example---for simplicity sake-- each account in examples has a $5,000 max daily drawdown and a $100,000 starting account balance
Examples
Topstep Acct and E2T mini-gauntlet - each has a $5,000 floating/trailing drawdown
In the session you are up $10,000 in profit (whether realized or unrealized) - before the end of the session however you lose $5,001 and end the day up $4,999.00 (with an account balance of $104,999) - you have failed - you had a $5,000 drawdown within same session and even though you are profitable on the session you fail because of the floating/trailing drawdown used. There is no next session for you and you need to either pay a reset fee or start another challenge
FTMO account - you have a $5,000 fixed drawdown. In the session you are up $10,000 in profit (whether realized or unrealized) - before the end of the session however you lose $5,001 and end the day up $4,999.00 - you have not failed - you have $4,999 in profits on the day (with an account balance of $104,999). Since FTMO uses a "fixed" drawdown below the zero line your $10,000 profit in the session actually means that now you have that $10,000 added to your $5,000 drawdown (within that same session) and you would now have a $15,000 cushion (within that same session) so if you were up $10,000 on the session ($110,000 balance) you would have to lose $15,000 to go to $95,000 account balance in same session to fail.
(instead of E2T and Topstep where if you go from $110,000 to $105,000 (or less) in same session you have failed)
Also if his was a live funded FTMO account - you could just withdraw the entire $4,999 and be paid your % of profits and then you still have the full $5,000 daily loss limit funding to keep trading with. Whereas in live funded account with E2T and Topstep--if you didnt fail (lets say you stopped before you lost $5,000 intra session and you went from $10,000 profits down to $5,025 in profits and account balance of $105,025. If you request to withdraw the entire $5025 to be paid your % --then your account is closed as you dont have anymore funding (at least that is the way I understand how their live acct works)
Now that being said, the rules on FTMO compared to the futures eval firms like E2T and TST are just so much more favorable to the trader it might be worth the risk to go with them over E2T/TST.
The trailing drawdown on real-time pnl that exists on all the futures eval firms is pure scam. There's a reason why despite so many new players in this space and hence more competition, that one feature hasn't been improved on by competing players.
It's b/c the trailing drawdown based on real-time pnl is their fountain of gold. THAT is how they manage to make so much money easily. It forces traders to cut their winners short meaning whatever +EV strategy they have will become -EV due to the trailing dd based on real-time pnl.
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It was a firm called Funding Talent. See below.
https://www.forexpeacearmy.com/community/threads/funding-talent-prop-firm-scam.70762/