The Herd, Vaccine and Natural Immunity Thread....

your statement is unfounded and illogical b.s. and it contradicts not only what is written in the report... but even the Summary from the CDC.

1. Nothing says the sailors will not not get antibodies in the future either from a re-infection or if they simply take longer to develop them. Nothing says that these sailors or our general population could not get to 60 70 or 80 percent of antibodies with a second wave of infections.

2. You don't know that the general population would not get antibodies at a higher rate than sailors.

3. You don't know the actual level needed for herd immunity. Those estimates of 60 to 70 percent are guesses based on spread rate. None of those early models were accurate.

You were the one who misrepresented the study.... it said nothing about herd immunity being a myth.


Everything about the study said it was promising for developing immunity.
so in addition to the quote from the paper...

Here is the summary from the CDC...

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6923e4.htm?s_cid=mm6923e4_e&deliveryName=USCDC_921-DM30202

Summary
What is already known about this topic?

Information about COVID-19 among young adults is limited.

What is added by this report?

Among a convenience sample of 382 young adult U.S. service members aboard an aircraft carrier experiencing a COVID-19 outbreak, 60% had reactive antibodies, and 59% of those also had neutralizing antibodies at the time of specimen collection. One fifth of infected participants reported no symptoms. Preventive measures, such as using face coverings and observing social distancing, reduced risk for infection.

What are the implications for public health practice?

Young, healthy adults with COVID-19 might have mild or no symptoms; therefore, symptom-based surveillance might not detect all infections. Use of face coverings and other preventive measures could mitigate transmission. The presence of neutralizing antibodies among the majority is a promising indicator of at least short-term immunity.
 
What do the following have in common; Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, and natural herd immunity for COVID-19. They are all myths.

Obviously if antibodies for COVID-19 last only a few mere weeks after infection then "natural herd immunity" is a fantasy... and infected people will catch COVID-19 again after recovery. Just like the 15 sailors on the aircraft carrier.


Coronavirus antibodies may last only two to three months after infection, study suggests
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/18/cor...-3-months-after-infection-study-suggests.html
  • Coronavirus antibodies may last only two to three months after a person becomes infected with Covid-19, according to a new study published Thursday in Nature Medicine.
  • Researchers in the Wanzhou District of China compared the antibody response of 37 asymptomatic people with that of 37 symptomatic people. The researchers found people without symptoms had a weaker antibody response than those with symptoms.
  • Additionally, within eight weeks, antibodies fell to undetectable levels in 40% of asymptomatic people, compared with 12.9% of symptomatic people, according to the study’s findings.
(More at above url)
 
How long antibodies last has always been a question....

see... I asked that question on the first page of this thread...




If its good news for a vaccine because we build immunity when exposed...
Its very good news for prospects of herd immunity.
Now there are still some questions... but they impact both vaccine and natural herd immunity. Like how long will it last.

However, unless you think we will have a vaccine soon...
this article is looking even better, so I will post it again.



Sweden’s Coronavirus Strategy Will Soon Be the World’s
Herd Immunity Is the Only Realistic Option—the Question Is How to Get There Safely


China placed 50 million people under quarantine in Hubei Province in January. Since then, many liberal democracies have taken aggressive authoritarian measures of their own to fight the novel coronavirus. By mid-March, almost all Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) countries had implemented some combination of school, university, workplace, and public transportation closures; restrictions on public events; and limits on domestic and international travel. One country, however, stands out as an exception in the West.

Rather than declare a lockdown or a state of emergency, Sweden asked its citizens to practice social distancing on a mostly voluntary basis. Swedish authorities imposed some restrictions designed to flatten the curve: no public gatherings of more than 50 people, no bar service, distance learning in high schools and universities, and so on. But they eschewed harsh controls, fines, and policing. Swedes have changed their behavior, but not as profoundly as the citizens of other Western democracies. Many restaurants remain open, although they are lightly trafficked; young children are still in school. And in contrast to neighboring Norway (and some Asian countries), Sweden has not introduced location-tracing technologies or apps, thus avoiding threats to privacy and personal autonomy.

Swedish authorities have not officially declared a goal of reaching herd immunity, which most scientists believe is achieved when more than 60 percent of the population has had the virus. But augmenting immunity is no doubt part of the government’s broader strategy—or at least a likely consequence of keeping schools, restaurants, and most businesses open. Anders Tegnell, the chief epidemiologist at Sweden’s Public Health Agency, has projected that the city of Stockholm could reach herd immunity as early as this month. Based on updated behavioral assumptions (social-distancing norms are changing how Swedes behave), the Stockholm University mathematician Tom Britton has calculated that 40 percent immunity in the capital could be enough to stop the virus’s spread there and that this could happen by mid-June.

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Sweden has won praise in some quarters for preserving at least some semblance of economic normalcy and keeping its per capita death rate lower than those of Belgium, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Spain, and the United Kingdom. But it has come in for criticism in other quarters for exceeding the per capita death rates of other Nordic countries and in particular, for failing to protect its elderly and immigrant populations. People receiving nursing and elder-care services account for upward of 50 percent of COVID-19 deaths in Sweden, according to Tegnell, in part because many facilities were grievously slow to implement basic protective measures such as mask wearing. Immigrants have also suffered disproportionately, mainly because they are poorer on average and tend to work in the service sector, where working remotely is usually impossible. But Swedish authorities have argued that the country’s higher death rate will appear comparatively lower in hindsight. Efforts to contain the virus are doomed to fail in many countries, and a large percentage of people will be infected in the end. When much of the world experiences a deadly second wave, Sweden will have the worst of the pandemic behind it.


When much of the world experiences a deadly second wave, Sweden will have the worst of the pandemic behind it.


Sweden’s response has not been perfect, but it has succeeded in bolstering immunity among the young and the healthy—those at the lowest risk of serious complications from COVID-19—while also flattening the curve. The country’s intensive care units have not been overrun, and hospital staffs, although under strain, have at least not had to juggle additional childcare responsibilities because daycares and lower schools continue to operate.

Whether or not they have openly embraced the Swedish approach, many other countries are now trying to emulate aspects of it. Both Denmark and Finland have reopened schools for young children. Germany is allowing small shops to reopen. Italy will soon reopen parks, and France has a plan to allow some nonessential businesses to reopen, including farmers’ markets and small museums, as well as schools and daycare centers. In the United States, which has by far the highest absolute number of reported COVID-19 deaths, several states are easing restrictions at the urging of President Donald Trump, who despite bashing the Swedish model, is pushing the country toward something very similar.

There are good reasons for countries to begin easing their restrictions. It will take several years to tally the total number of deaths, bankruptcies, layoffs, suicides, mental health problems, losses to GDP and investments, and other costs attributable not just to the virus but to the measures used to fight it. It should already be obvious, however, that the economic and social costs of lockdowns are enormous: estimates from the OECD suggest that every month of pandemic-related restrictions will shrink the economies of advanced countries by two percent. France, Germany, Italy, Spain, the United Kingdom, and the United States, according to the OECD, will see their economies shrink by more than 25 percent within a year. Unemployment is rising to levels unheard of since the 1930s—fueling political backlash and deepening social divisions.


Lockdowns are simply not sustainable for the amount of time that it will likely take to develop a vaccine.


Lockdowns are simply not sustainable for the amount of time that it will likely take to develop a vaccine. Letting up will reduce economic, social, and political pressures. It may also allow populations to build an immunity that will end up being the least bad way of fighting COVID-19 in the long run. Much about the disease remains poorly understood, but countries that are locked down now could very well face new and even more severe outbreaks down the road. If these countries follow the Swedish path to herd immunity, the total cost of the pandemic will decrease, and it will likely end sooner.

Sweden’s approach to COVID-19 reflects the country’s distinctive culture, and aspects of it may not be easy to replicate elsewhere. In particular, reliance on official recommendations and individual responsibility may not travel well beyond Scandinavia. Sweden is a special country characterized by high levels of trust—not just between people but between people and government institutions. Swedes were primed to take voluntary recommendations seriously in a way that citizens of other nations may not be.

Swedes are also generally healthier than citizens of many other countries, so additional precautions may be necessary to protect the infirm in other parts of the world. Countries lifting restrictions should also learn from Sweden’s missteps when it comes to the elderly and immigrants: masks and other protective equipment should be made immediately available in nursing homes, and greater emphasis should be placed on protecting service-sector workers who are at higher risk because of age or infirmity. But the emphasis must be on helping at-risk people stay safe and out of harm’s way, not locking entire societies down.

As scientists learn more about the virus and authorities develop new and better ways to work around the contagion—altering the parameters for calculating herd immunity to account for behavioral changes, for instance—the justification for general lockdowns grows weaker and weaker. Even in places like the United States and the United Kingdom, where the pool of at-risk people is much larger, the cost of protecting these people is much lower than forcing everyone to stay home. Managing the path to herd immunity means, above all, protecting the vulnerable. Sweden learned that the hard way, but the situation there is now under control.

As the pain of national lockdowns grows intolerable and countries realize that managing—rather than defeating—the pandemic is the only realistic option, more and more of them will begin to open up. Smart social distancing to keep health-care systems from being overwhelmed, improved therapies for the afflicted, and better protections for at-risk groups can help reduce the human toll. But at the end of the day, increased—and ultimately, herd—immunity may be the only viable defense against the disease, so long as vulnerable groups are protected along the way. Whatever marks Sweden deserves for managing the pandemic, other nations are beginning to see that it is ahead of the curve.


    • NILS KARLSON is Professor of Political Science at Linköping University and President and CEO of the Ratio Institute.
    • CHARLOTTA STERN is Professor of Sociology in Work and Organization at Stockholm University and Deputy CEO of the Ratio Institute.
    • DANIEL B. KLEIN is Professor of Economics and JIN Chair at the Mercatus Center at George Mason University and Associate Fellow of the Ratio Institute.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/arti...dens-coronavirus-strategy-will-soon-be-worlds
 
I think this is what we were discussing last week.

The second study seems consistent with other reports we saw weeks ago... Maybe it was the same population.
If you are asymptomatic you many not develop long lasting or detectible antibodies.

Which leaves us with many questions. I have quite a few about the accuracy of the antibody tests. Because frankly I think we would be hearing about many more people getting it twice by now. Especially nurses and doctors in hospitals.

But.. we will see.



https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/studies-report-rapid-loss-of-covid-19-antibodies-67650

Studies Report Rapid Loss of COVID-19 Antibodies

The results, while preliminary, suggest that survivors of SARS-CoV-2 infection may be susceptible to reinfection within weeks or months.



Amanda Heidt
Jun 19, 2020

CHRISTOPH BURGSTEDT

Apair of studies published this week is shedding light on the duration of immunity following COVID-19, showing patients lose their IgG antibodies—the virus-specific, slower-forming antibodies associated with long-term immunity—within weeks or months after recovery. With COVID-19, most people who become infected do produce antibodies, and even small amounts can still neutralize the virus in vitro, according to earlier work. These latest studies could not determine if a lack of antibodies leaves people at risk of reinfection.

One of the studies found that 10 percent of nearly 1,500 COVID-positive patients registered undetectable antibody levels within weeks of first showing symptoms, while the other of 74 patients found they typically lost their antibodies two to three months after recovering from the infection, especially among those who tested positive but were asymptomatic.

In contrast, infections caused by coronavirus cousins such as SARS and MERS result in antibodies that remain in the body for nearly a year, according to The New York Times.

The first study, published June 16 on the preprint server medRxiv, screened for antibodies in almost 1,500 coronavirus patients in Wuhan, China. The researchers compared their levels to three other groups: nearly 20,000 members of the general population; more than 1,600 patients hospitalized for reasons other than COVID-19; and more than 3,800 medical workers, whom the authors assumed had “inevitably” been exposed to the virus in its early days, meaning they should have developed antibodies.

They found that while almost 90 percent of COVID-19 patients had antibodies, roughly 1 percent to 5 percent of individuals in the others groups had them as well. The authors conclude in their paper that the remaining 10 percent of infected patients with no detectable antibodies, combined with the lack of antibodies in healthcare workers, suggest that “after SARS-CoV-2 infection, people are unlikely to produce long-lasting protective antibodies against this virus.”

See “What Do Antibody Tests For SARS-CoV-2 Tell Us About Immunity?
In the second study, published June 18 in Nature Medicine, researchers compared the immune responses of 37 asymptomatic but positive patients to an equal number with severe symptoms living in the Wanzhou District in China. They found that asymptomatic individuals reacted less strongly to infection, with 40 percent having undetectable levels of protective antibodies in the two to three months after the infection compared to 13 percent of the symptomatic patients.

“Overall, these results are interesting and provocative but more research is needed, following large numbers of people over time,” Daniel Davis, an immunologist at the University of Manchester, tells Newsweek. “Only then will we clearly know how many people produce antibodies when infected with coronavirus, and for how long.”

The discrepancies between people mirror what Anthony Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, has himself observed. In a conversationwith Howard Bauchner, the editor in chief of the Journal of the American Medical Association earlier this month, he said that in addition to a lack of consistency among testing methods, individuals do not have “a uniformly robust antibody response.” This fact may make it difficult to develop a vaccine that works equally well for all people.

See “Why the Accuracy of SARS-CoV-2 Antibody Tests Varies So Much
“These reports highlight the need to develop strong vaccines, because immunity that develops naturally during infection is suboptimal and short-lived in most people,” Akiko Iwasaki, a viral immunologist at Yale University who was not involved in either study, tells The New York Times. “We cannot rely on natural infection to achieve herd immunity.”
 
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Numerous doctors who actually, practice medicine have noted that you develop immunity to any virus once, you get infected then, get cured of it. Had both measles and chicken pox when I was 6, now 62, have not had it again. I am more inclined to believe nothing has changed and you still get immunity from any virus after you overcome it and get better. You cannot get infected again nor infect others. Now, a lot of studies coming out of the woodwork and who is funding these studies? None of it is free. Someone pays for these studies and either it is a corporation or a political hack out to use it for political purposes. None of these studies have been vetted for accuracy in the first place, the methods they used, etc. Figures are meaningless without verification or audit if you prefer that word.
 
Numerous doctors who actually, practice medicine have noted that you develop immunity to any virus once, you get infected then, get cured of it. Had both measles and chicken pox when I was 6, now 62, have not had it again. I am more inclined to believe nothing has changed and you still get immunity from any virus after you overcome it and get better. You cannot get infected again nor infect others. Now, a lot of studies coming out of the woodwork and who is funding these studies? None of it is free. Someone pays for these studies and either it is a corporation or a political hack out to use it for political purposes. None of these studies have been vetted for accuracy in the first place, the methods they used, etc. Figures are meaningless without verification or audit if you prefer that word.

Are you claiming that EVERYONE gets immunity from measles once they have it? Even the vaccine is only 97% effective. As noted in the Baltimore studies of measles that led to the "herd immunity" vaccine theory - there was as least 6% of the population who had measles who caught it a second time. The first case being mild and the second case being much worse.

The common code is a coronavirus. You can catch the same common cold over & over again..... there is little to no immunity for most variants of the common cold -- if there are then they last a few weeks at best.
 
But then there are people who never have a cold their entire adult lives.




Are you claiming that EVERYONE gets immunity from measles once they have it? Even the vaccine is only 97% effective. As noted in the Baltimore studies of measles that led to the "herd immunity" vaccine theory - there was as least 6% of the population who had measles who caught it a second time. The first case being mild and the second case being much worse.

The common code is a coronavirus. You can catch the same common cold over & over again..... there is little to no immunity for most variants of the common cold -- if there are then they last a few weeks at best.
 
But then there are people who never have a cold their entire adult lives.

Some generic factors (some are generically resistant to HIV) but mostly self-reporting error. My oldest brother never gets sick, his eyes are red, he has a temperature, his nose is running but no way he is ill.

As the cold is made up of several types of virus, even still unknown types its beyond improbable some are generically resistant to all colds. They may more likely have been lucky not to encounter many they would get.
 
Are you claiming that EVERYONE gets immunity from measles once they have it? Even the vaccine is only 97% effective. As noted in the Baltimore studies of measles that led to the "herd immunity" vaccine theory - there was as least 6% of the population who had measles who caught it a second time. The first case being mild and the second case being much worse.

The common code is a coronavirus. You can catch the same common cold over & over again..... there is little to no immunity for most variants of the common cold -- if there are then they last a few weeks at best.

So, now you muddle the issues? What is a cold anyways? An allergy. Just boil some ginger, add honey and drink it. Your sniffles would be gone in a hurry. Apples to oranges comparison. By and large, you develop immunity to any virus. It is not me saying it but, actual doctors out there practicing medicine and not the hacks in their cushy offices with 6 figure salaries? These hacks have to remain relevant otherwise, their asses would be canned and those go those fat salaries of theirs. Dr. Fauci lied about the masks and saying they do nothing for you. Now, admits that is a lie. Predicted 2,000,000 deaths per his models then, revised it lower and lower. Say, we will be overwhelmed with a 2nd wave but, now says there will not be a 2nd wave? When does the lies end? And that is what we need to believe in? Studies without vetting or being audited are bogus. Just like financial statements of Wall Street companies that is unaudited. All smoke and mirrors.
 
You can catch the same common cold over & over again..... there is little to no immunity for most variants of the common cold -- if there are then they last a few weeks at best.
FALSE
https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/catch-cold-twice-video
It’s actually highly unlikely to catch the same cold twice. Colds are caused by viruses, and when your immune system fights one off, it builds up antibodies to it. Even if you encounter lingering viral particles from the same cold strain you battled before—on your coffee mug, your toothbrush, or via a cough or a sneeze from someone nearby—you’re probably not going to be infected again.
While you’re immune to that particular cold virus, you’re not protected from the more than 200 other viruses that can cause the sniffles.
 
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