The Herd, Vaccine and Natural Immunity Thread....
- Thread starter jem
- Start date
you are fucking nuts GWB with your bullshit about herd immunity being a myth.
As some of us said many weeks ago... its not just about antibodies... there are other immune responses to consider....
Do you understand what it could mean that 30 percent of blood donors had Covid 19 T cells in this tested population?
Its early but if this study passes peer review it might mean herd immunity is a potential fact for populations not in lock down.
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One interesting observation was that it wasn't just individuals with verified COVID-19 who showed T-cell immunity but also many of their exposed asymptomatic family members," says Soo Aleman. "Moreover, roughly 30 percent of the blood donors who'd given blood in May 2020 had COVID-19-specific T cells, a figure that's much higher than previous antibody tests have shown."
The T-cell response was consistent with measurements taken after vaccination with approved vaccines for other viruses. Patients with severe COVID-19 often developed a strong T-cell response and an antibody response; in those with milder symptoms it was not always possible to detect an antibody response, but despite this many still showed a marked T-cell response.
Very good news from a public health perspective
"Our results indicate that public immunity to COVID-19 is probably significantly higher than antibody tests have suggested," says Professor Hans-Gustaf Ljunggren at the Center for Infectious Medicine, Karolinska Institutet, and co-senior author. "If this is the case, it is of course very good news from a public health perspective."
T-cell analyses are more complicated to perform than antibody tests and at present are therefore only done in specialized laboratories, such as that at the Center for Infectious Medicine at Karolinska Institutet.
"Larger and more longitudinal studies must now be done on both T cells and antibodies to understand how long-lasting the immunity is and how these different components of COVID-19 immunity are related," says Marcus Buggert.
The results are so new that they have not yet undergone peer review ahead of publication in a scientific journal. Pending such review, the article has been published on a preprint server, bioRxiv.
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-06-immunity-covid-higher-shown.html
As some of us said many weeks ago... its not just about antibodies... there are other immune responses to consider....
Do you understand what it could mean that 30 percent of blood donors had Covid 19 T cells in this tested population?
Its early but if this study passes peer review it might mean herd immunity is a potential fact for populations not in lock down.
---
One interesting observation was that it wasn't just individuals with verified COVID-19 who showed T-cell immunity but also many of their exposed asymptomatic family members," says Soo Aleman. "Moreover, roughly 30 percent of the blood donors who'd given blood in May 2020 had COVID-19-specific T cells, a figure that's much higher than previous antibody tests have shown."
The T-cell response was consistent with measurements taken after vaccination with approved vaccines for other viruses. Patients with severe COVID-19 often developed a strong T-cell response and an antibody response; in those with milder symptoms it was not always possible to detect an antibody response, but despite this many still showed a marked T-cell response.
Very good news from a public health perspective
"Our results indicate that public immunity to COVID-19 is probably significantly higher than antibody tests have suggested," says Professor Hans-Gustaf Ljunggren at the Center for Infectious Medicine, Karolinska Institutet, and co-senior author. "If this is the case, it is of course very good news from a public health perspective."
T-cell analyses are more complicated to perform than antibody tests and at present are therefore only done in specialized laboratories, such as that at the Center for Infectious Medicine at Karolinska Institutet.
"Larger and more longitudinal studies must now be done on both T cells and antibodies to understand how long-lasting the immunity is and how these different components of COVID-19 immunity are related," says Marcus Buggert.
The results are so new that they have not yet undergone peer review ahead of publication in a scientific journal. Pending such review, the article has been published on a preprint server, bioRxiv.
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-06-immunity-covid-higher-shown.html
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this is where the science is... right now... if that paper passes muster.
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Lets say 30 percent in a community have T cell immunity.
Another 5 to 10 percent in the community have antibody immunity...
Per some models that population may be on the verge of achieving herd immunity.
(remember... unfortunately those most "connected" or most vulnerable will die or become immune first... hence you don't need to get to 60 percent.)
So right now as we speak... Stockholm Sweden may be on the verge of starting to experience the benefits of herd immunity. Now the rest of Sweden is still going to have to build... but immunity and experience the virus...
vs
Areas which shutdown hard like California ... run the risk of having the virus run rampant through their population as the population emerges from a lockdown which did not extinguish the virus.
==
Some variables to consider...
1. Vaccine or therapies may help the shutdown group avoid Covid pain.
2. Virus burns out on on
3. Immunity burns out quickly so some of you population has to experience a second infection - which may or may not be symptomatic.
4. T cell immunity may not make you immune from spreading... so you would need more people to have t cell or antibody immunity to eventually see the virus die out on its own.
5. Don't forget the lockdowns are causing massive medical, emotional and financial pain. So while you may avoid some Covid exposures and deaths in the short run... at the same time you shutdown is causing deaths. Shutdown is not a "free lunch" - there damage and death on both sides of the equation.
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Lets say 30 percent in a community have T cell immunity.
Another 5 to 10 percent in the community have antibody immunity...
Per some models that population may be on the verge of achieving herd immunity.
(remember... unfortunately those most "connected" or most vulnerable will die or become immune first... hence you don't need to get to 60 percent.)
So right now as we speak... Stockholm Sweden may be on the verge of starting to experience the benefits of herd immunity. Now the rest of Sweden is still going to have to build... but immunity and experience the virus...
vs
Areas which shutdown hard like California ... run the risk of having the virus run rampant through their population as the population emerges from a lockdown which did not extinguish the virus.
==
Some variables to consider...
1. Vaccine or therapies may help the shutdown group avoid Covid pain.
2. Virus burns out on on
3. Immunity burns out quickly so some of you population has to experience a second infection - which may or may not be symptomatic.
4. T cell immunity may not make you immune from spreading... so you would need more people to have t cell or antibody immunity to eventually see the virus die out on its own.
5. Don't forget the lockdowns are causing massive medical, emotional and financial pain. So while you may avoid some Covid exposures and deaths in the short run... at the same time you shutdown is causing deaths. Shutdown is not a "free lunch" - there damage and death on both sides of the equation.
Another variable,
I was just listening to the radio in Ireland and a doctor was on discussing complications they are seeing with Covid-19 ranging from heart damage, nerve & kidney and very commonly memory issues that are significant enough to be worrying.
The mechanism for the memory issues is unclear, possibly related to oxygen deprivation in areas of the brain. What else is unclear is if this is a short term or long term degradation but they are worried about it as its not just elderly, they see it in younger people who expressed relatively small to no symptoms otherwise.
This post-covid "fuzzy brain" is getting noticed enough to alarm docs.
Losing a percentage of brain function won't matter to the ET right of course
but... younger people?
Edit: I'll add this link as I was reading it and it discusses what covid-19 is doing to brains.
www.bbc.com/news/health-53081022
I was just listening to the radio in Ireland and a doctor was on discussing complications they are seeing with Covid-19 ranging from heart damage, nerve & kidney and very commonly memory issues that are significant enough to be worrying.
The mechanism for the memory issues is unclear, possibly related to oxygen deprivation in areas of the brain. What else is unclear is if this is a short term or long term degradation but they are worried about it as its not just elderly, they see it in younger people who expressed relatively small to no symptoms otherwise.
This post-covid "fuzzy brain" is getting noticed enough to alarm docs.
Losing a percentage of brain function won't matter to the ET right of course
but... younger people?Edit: I'll add this link as I was reading it and it discusses what covid-19 is doing to brains.
www.bbc.com/news/health-53081022
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that maybe a problem... I have heard of other worries ID docs have. (I hear them 2nd hand from doctors )
but it does not change the fact that our shit shutdown has achieved nothing in terms of stopping the virus.
as I just said on another thread...
Fauci told us we needed a 97 percent shutdown... not the crappy 50 percent one we had.
(a 97 percent shutdown is one model which at least was designed to work... not just shift the virus exposure in time.)
but it does not change the fact that our shit shutdown has achieved nothing in terms of stopping the virus.
as I just said on another thread...
Fauci told us we needed a 97 percent shutdown... not the crappy 50 percent one we had.
(a 97 percent shutdown is one model which at least was designed to work... not just shift the virus exposure in time.)
Another variable,
I was just listening to the radio in Ireland and a doctor was on discussing complications they are seeing with Covid-19 ranging from heart damage, nerve & kidney and very commonly memory issues that are significant enough to be worrying.
The mechanism for the memory issues is unclear, possibly related to oxygen deprivation in areas of the brain. What else is unclear is if this is a short term or long term degradation but they are worried about it as its not just elderly, they see it in younger people who expressed relatively small to no symptoms otherwise.
This post-covid "fuzzy brain" is getting noticed enough to alarm docs.
Loosing a percentage of brain function won't matter to the ET right of course
Yes it achieved a lot as it have time to prep but it seems beyond your comprehension why. Autistic spectrum type blinkered thinking or just unbelievably bloody minded.
You can't measure a shutdown in percentages. Its like a forest fire and has to be treated as such.
Whatever the public was being told, very soon nobody was thinking a shutdown would stop it, just slow it. This prevented a LOT of death by modifying the infection curve from a literally exponential hockey stick to something possible to manage.
I know Buy1Sell2 and yourself have little to no concern for how hundreds of thousands would have ended their lives in tents in fields with nobody there when the die suffocating and be buried in mass graves but.. the rest if us have a different view.
You talk about destroyed businesses and lives. So if you are old and near retirement under the Buy1 / Jem model you have had your good years and your life no longer has value anyway to the economy. If you are younger you can rebuild your business so your life is unlikely to be destroyed.
Really, you need to think a little bigger. This can I blame Faucci for this or WHO for that is bollocks (I'm talking in general, not you specifically). He is not doing an awful job considering his boss is fucking mad. Again, some things are not for arguing with, like the virus, it needs to be outmaneuvered in the physical world, not its legs talked off.
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you are just making shit up...
no data.. no science....
no charts... no graphs..
you are the one who is not thinking.
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everything you offered was the fear that was projected... but countered by what happened in Sweden once the old folks homes were locked down.
in the graph below the red dashes are the bullshit hockey stick type graph you all feared and have been warning about. (the front half of the curve up to its projected peak.)
looking at results so far... the only way we get that type of graph you fear... is with a poorly done 50% type lockdown ...locking down partially over and over and perhaps never reaping the the benefit of T cells and antibody immunity or locking down fully an extinguishing the virus.
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What I just explained... takes a real understanding of systems. Maybe you have to trust the "experts" in the media. But, without data... its likely b.s.
Real experts like the google scientists think and provide data. The ones with real brain power are authoring papers regarding the cluster and super spreader models. Those are the guys who are thinking and not relying on 100 year old models.
If you don't understand that allowing our natural immunity systems and the cluster and super spreader model to work in our favor...
you are hopelessly outmatched by this virus.
no data.. no science....
no charts... no graphs..
you are the one who is not thinking.
==
everything you offered was the fear that was projected... but countered by what happened in Sweden once the old folks homes were locked down.
in the graph below the red dashes are the bullshit hockey stick type graph you all feared and have been warning about. (the front half of the curve up to its projected peak.)
looking at results so far... the only way we get that type of graph you fear... is with a poorly done 50% type lockdown ...locking down partially over and over and perhaps never reaping the the benefit of T cells and antibody immunity or locking down fully an extinguishing the virus.
----
What I just explained... takes a real understanding of systems. Maybe you have to trust the "experts" in the media. But, without data... its likely b.s.
Real experts like the google scientists think and provide data. The ones with real brain power are authoring papers regarding the cluster and super spreader models. Those are the guys who are thinking and not relying on 100 year old models.
If you don't understand that allowing our natural immunity systems and the cluster and super spreader model to work in our favor...
you are hopelessly outmatched by this virus.
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you are just making shit up...
no data.. no science....
no charts... no graphs..
you are the one who is not thinking.
==
everything you offered was the fear that was projected... but countered by what happened in Sweden once the old folks homes were locked down.
in the graph below the red dashes are the bullshit hockey stick type graph... (the front half of the curve up.)
the only way we get that type of graph... is with a poorly done 50% lockdown ...locking down over and over and never getting the benefit of T cells and antibody immunity.
The 50 percent lockdowns we just experienced and you seem to cheerleading for are the biggest risk for the hockey stick graphs...
not the 2 models I advocate.
----
What I just explained... takes a real understanding of systems. Maybe you have to trust the "experts" in the media. But, without data... its likely b.s.
Real experts like the google scientists think and provide data. The ones with real brain power are authoring papers regarding the cluster and super spreader models. Those are the guys who are thinking and not relying on 100 year old models.
If you don't understand that allowing our natural immunity systems and the cluster and super spreader model to work in our favor...
you are hopelessly outmatched by this virus.
Delusional. You are just gripping harder to your sciencey-ish charts as a way to keep your bluster going.
You might want to think why how you are see by others here is so important to your ego you make a fool of yourself.
You have no regard to the appalling manner of the deaths of tens to hundreds of thousands. Well unless you thought it might affect YOU.
Magical thinking Jem when you don't take into account what can actually be done in a short timeframe. Sweden could not have been applied to the US in those initial weeks without a disaster. It was bad enough in Sweden. I'm not getting into a science discussion with someone at your mental pigsty level. You are a mental spastic.
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you are the delusional one.
Shutting down low risk groups may not even be saving deaths overall.
It may be causing non covid deaths in the short run... and not saving any covid deaths in the long run.
this graph is not magical... it just seems that way to you because your mind can't grasp real world results that run counter to your narrative.
Sweden has massively outperformed you and your teams hockey stick fear and doom predictions.
Smart people would look at these results and challenge their own narrative.
Non thinkers refuse to change their world view when presented with data which destroys their narrative ... and prefer to call real world results magical.
You have not even tried to explain how Sweden could have these results given you preferred Covid models.
Do you see how non intellectual your own filters are?
Shutting down low risk groups may not even be saving deaths overall.
It may be causing non covid deaths in the short run... and not saving any covid deaths in the long run.
this graph is not magical... it just seems that way to you because your mind can't grasp real world results that run counter to your narrative.
Sweden has massively outperformed you and your teams hockey stick fear and doom predictions.
Smart people would look at these results and challenge their own narrative.
Non thinkers refuse to change their world view when presented with data which destroys their narrative ... and prefer to call real world results magical.
You have not even tried to explain how Sweden could have these results given you preferred Covid models.
Do you see how non intellectual your own filters are?
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you are the delusional one.
Shutting down low risk groups may not even be saving deaths overall.
It may be causing non covid deaths in the short run... and not saving any covid deaths in the long run.
this graph is not magical... it just seems that way to you because your mind can't grasp real world results that run counter to your narrative.
Sweden has massively outperformed you and your teams hockey stick fear and doom predictions.
Smart people would look at these results and challenge their own narrative.
Non thinkers refuse to change their world view when presented with data which destroys their narrative ... and prefer to call real world results magical.
You have not even tried to explain how Sweden could have these results given you preferred Covid models.
Do you see how non intellectual your own filters are?
Straw man again, fuck off with that you lightweight.
This maniacal obsession he has with the impossible implementation on the timescale available being discarded to make him look like he has some wisdom others don't.
Magical thinking.
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