The Hard Questions
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Stu wrote: "If that is your understanding then I must disabuse you of it.
I don't presuppose God is capable of anything, including forgiving for whatever reason even the one as bizarre as you suggest.
God is in fact and in all terms imaginary. Always was, still is and actually has to be. Just like with any imaginary friend, they literally wouldn't be what they are, if they weren't imaginary.
But in any case, if this totally human imagined concept was truly a benevolent God as it is claimed to be, then it should really have no need to forgive anything but itself for the things it is said to have done.
Dude, you're trying to rationalize an imaginary concept which is supposed to create everyone with sin, whether they like it or not, contradictorily removing free will which it was supposed to have created, so that it can then kill itself as a sacrifice to itself, to forgive or "save" everyone from the sin it originally condemned them with in the first place. I mean... really, come on!
Throwing Bible verses at me to justify that nonsense just makes the whole shebang sound even more absurd. A God that condemns for the f#k ups it clearly made itself in "revealed words" makes itself worthy of censure.
Why folks are so prepared to fall for such religious nonsense whether in story form or not is what's so fascinating, but then that's probably because so many people are scared and/or suffer from FOMO , even when it is to do with imaginary things."
I don’t have time to address all of what you wrote, so I’m just going to address these 2 things in this post:
“Throwing Bible verses at me to justify that nonsense just makes the whole shebang sound even more absurd.”
So, my thinking in writing the last post was to show I believe that God is good in both judging sin and forgiving sin, and I tried to explain it through using Bible verses...partly to show that these were not ideas I made up, but they are based on Scripture, and partly the Bible says that faith comes by hearing the Word of God. So, for a person to begin to believe, they must "listen" to the Word of God. I believe “hearing” hear implies a heart that will listen, not just the mere act of reading the Bible.
“Is what’s so fascinating”
OK, so, perhaps I’m beginning to understand why you are trolling on threads that favor Christianity. What bothers me about your posts is that you are portraying God as though He does not exist, and also that you are completely misrepresenting His good character, which is what I love Him for.
The reasons I believe in God, I believe, are based on very strong evidences. They are not based on my emotions or a FOMO or anything that I also, would view as unreliable.
I'll start of with this. In the book of Genesis, God:
1. Provided animal skins for Adam and Eve for clothing after they had sinned. This implies that there was the death of the animals, and this is the first picture of an innocent dying for the guilty.
2. The practice of sacrificing continued, and God addressed it in the story of Cain and Abel. Cain did not want to sacrifice and animal….basically, the same old story, didn’t want to come to God according to God’s terms. This is the first time we are shown that animal sacrifices appear to be at set times and a part of what God required.
3. God foretold to the serpent, who we know to be Satan, “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head and you will strike his heel.”
Here, in the very beginnings of humanity, God requires an animal sacrifice and foretells that there would be one born of a woman who would crush Satan’s head AND Satan would strike his heel. The significance of this verse is that Jesus fulfilled this. “The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.” 1 John 3:8
For further reading, see
https://www.gotquestions.org/protoevangelium.html
Here is the main point of what I'm trying to say. The fact that there was an established animal sacrificial system AND the fact that the "protoevangelium" or foretelling of the crushing of Satan by One to come, is strong evidence that Jesus fulfilled what had been previously written in the Scriptures about Him.
In a way, I’m fascinated that anyone could look at this type of evidence and NOT believe that the Bible is true.
I'm writing this late at night and need to be done. Besides, this topic could turn into a book. If you are interested in continuing this discussion on these kinds of evidences that the God of the Bible is real, then I’m willing to continue to post on here more reasons to believe the Bible.
Yes I get all that. It's called blind unthinking faith.
At least as far as my posts to you are concerned, I think it fair to say responding in the form of a discussion to your over the top evangelical proselytizing posts, is not trolling.
I think it bothers many religious people to have their fervently held beliefs rationally challenged. One reason why I consider religion to be generally an unhealthy thing.
Also, I'm really not misrepresenting anything. God IS only imaginary, and what good character is God supposed to have exactly? Love me then I'll love you back or maybe I won't, is not a sign of good character.
Of course I've read what you call the Word of God and don't like what I hear one bit. If you read it with a heart that isn't already hardened by a predisposed to thoughtless acquiescence, then it shows itself to be the word of a violent, immoral, hateful character, which hypocritically piggy backs on a promise of unconditional love, but only if you love it first.
Basing a belief on an imaginary concept with the presupposition it exists is "very strong evidences" ? Really!? How does that work exactly? Why is that not what it is, ie unreliable ? You are, after all, believing a story that is all about encouraging emotion and a FOMO.
Really? You may as well start with The Chronicles of Narnia as evidence for talking lions.
That's your God's "good character"? Are you serious!? A God which purposely causes innocents to die for those it made guilty, as a reason to later kill itself in order to forgive you for being guilty of sins which it first introduced into the world and committed itself. wtf!
dude, those kind of evidences are called make-believe. Sure I'm interested, but please, your standards for evidence would need to at least be plausible. I mean, I have 'evidences' for Dragons but wouldn't think it reasonable to use them in a discussion about what's real or reliable.
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That question was directed at good1. And in relation to his statement, everything we perceive is essentially false, if I am understanding him.
I'd be very interested in some of the books you mention, as I've read your posts multiple times and I just don't get them outside of a cursory familiarity.
Ok I'll send privately as it's my policy not to mention any sources except on request . Gotta run do things for the day now so must be later.
Yes, everything that can be perceived is false . What is true can only be known. That kind of knowledge is not like what's called "knowledge" as an accumulation of perceptions. Perception at best observes some relative reliability in what faith has wrought. But all things built on faith will pass away when faith is withdrawn...when no more attention or interest is placed in its principles. It's primary principle is that opposites can combine to ADD (more) to what is already known to be R/real (capital R denoting a living Being).
[Edit] real knowledge can be known in an instant and is (for the ignorant) available upon request without books or experience. However beware , true knowledge is more of an all or nothing proposition. One knows all or nothing. It's a totality. Man can receive bite sized pieced when ready to accept new information. That's what happened to me when I was 20.
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I think it will help keep the discussion clear and on topic if I keep a running log of what I present and your responses.
First Presented Evidences: The “protoevangelium” and the animal sacrifices were a foretelling that One would come who would would be a sacrificial substitute on behalf of sinners...Jesus fulfilled these prophecies.
The reason this is evidence is because:
1. The animal sacrifices and physical documentation of the “protoevangelium” existing centuries and even millennia before Jesus was born is unquestioned (to my knowledge).
2. That Jesus fulfilled both what was written and the sacrificial evidences by the sacrifice of Himself is something that could only have happened through God’s planning.
The foretelling happened before Jesus was born, it was not something He or His disciples made up suddenly to create a following. This is also very significant.
I said my faith is based on “evidences” and this prophesy, supported by an entire nation’s practice of animal sacrifices, being fulfilled in Jesus is, in my mind a very strong evidence.
Arguments Against:
I didn’t see a specific reason addressed to the fulfillment of prophecy, unless it would be this:
Stu: "Basing a belief on an imaginary concept with the presupposition it exists is "very strong evidences" ?
Or perhaps this:
Stu: “Really? You may as well start with The Chronicles of Narnia as evidence for talking lions.”
My second group of evidences that the Bible is true are found by looking at 2 more prophecies that were fulfilled in Jesus.
1. The prophesy that One called “God with us” would be born of a virgin. “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel.” (Immanuel means “God with us.”) Isaiah 7:14
Luke 1:35 records the fulfillment of this. “The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So, the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.”
I am going to assume that you will disagree that this took place as stated. However, there’s more.
2. There is a prophesy that one would come from Bethlehem who existed previously. “But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days.” Micah 5:2
Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Here again, is a prophecy that is very specific that Jesus fulfilled just by being born in Bethlehem.
There is significance to this: There’s a limited amount of people that have been born in Bethlehem. There’s also a limited amount of people that were in King David’s lineage...Jesus fulfilled this through his mother Mary, and his stepfather, Joseph, each had separate lines directly to King David.
These were not things Jesus, if he had been merely a human, could have engineered AFTER he was an adult...had he simply been a delusional man.
There’s more to consider as well, outside of internal evidences within the Bible.
Thanks for discussing this with me. Although I would love to persuade you to become a Christian, if that doesn't happen, perhaps I can at least show that there are some logical reasons for why Christians believe the Bible.
First Presented Evidences: The “protoevangelium” and the animal sacrifices were a foretelling that One would come who would would be a sacrificial substitute on behalf of sinners...Jesus fulfilled these prophecies.
The reason this is evidence is because:
1. The animal sacrifices and physical documentation of the “protoevangelium” existing centuries and even millennia before Jesus was born is unquestioned (to my knowledge).
2. That Jesus fulfilled both what was written and the sacrificial evidences by the sacrifice of Himself is something that could only have happened through God’s planning.
The foretelling happened before Jesus was born, it was not something He or His disciples made up suddenly to create a following. This is also very significant.
I said my faith is based on “evidences” and this prophesy, supported by an entire nation’s practice of animal sacrifices, being fulfilled in Jesus is, in my mind a very strong evidence.
Arguments Against:
I didn’t see a specific reason addressed to the fulfillment of prophecy, unless it would be this:
Stu: "Basing a belief on an imaginary concept with the presupposition it exists is "very strong evidences" ?
Or perhaps this:
Stu: “Really? You may as well start with The Chronicles of Narnia as evidence for talking lions.”
My second group of evidences that the Bible is true are found by looking at 2 more prophecies that were fulfilled in Jesus.
1. The prophesy that One called “God with us” would be born of a virgin. “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel.” (Immanuel means “God with us.”) Isaiah 7:14
Luke 1:35 records the fulfillment of this. “The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So, the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.”
I am going to assume that you will disagree that this took place as stated. However, there’s more.
2. There is a prophesy that one would come from Bethlehem who existed previously. “But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days.” Micah 5:2
Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Here again, is a prophecy that is very specific that Jesus fulfilled just by being born in Bethlehem.
There is significance to this: There’s a limited amount of people that have been born in Bethlehem. There’s also a limited amount of people that were in King David’s lineage...Jesus fulfilled this through his mother Mary, and his stepfather, Joseph, each had separate lines directly to King David.
These were not things Jesus, if he had been merely a human, could have engineered AFTER he was an adult...had he simply been a delusional man.
There’s more to consider as well, outside of internal evidences within the Bible.
- Something cannot come out of nothing.
- All of creation shows “Intelligent Design.”
Thanks for discussing this with me. Although I would love to persuade you to become a Christian, if that doesn't happen, perhaps I can at least show that there are some logical reasons for why Christians believe the Bible.
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Hahaha, I wrote a response to you late at night, was rushing to finish....and forgot to post it as a reply to your message....it's easy to find, it's the one just above this post.
Sorry to all for any confusion. Because it's not posted as a reply, the post starts off without addressing who it's responding to....
First of all, thanks for the civil response. It's especially refreshing to be able to have an exchange with you without the usual insults that seem to have invariably accompanied conversations with others on this subject.
I've read through your log and after doing so have to say dude, if you are only going to argue in the form of "Scripture" It's what it says so it must be true, then we ain't going to get very far.
To be fair though, I do appreciate you've given some explanation of reasons why you believe in God, but I do find they come accross as unreliable, unsound and unreasonable.
What I'm saying is, the Bible is a collection of (fictional)stories and you are using the contents of those stories as evidences that they are true. So we're still doing... the Bible's true because the Bible's true... thing.
To address a couple of your examples which I understand form the crux of your position.
It's true peeps carried out animal sacrifices for centuries before Bible God, and during the time when authors started writing stories about Bible God they were doing the same.
The bizarre tale about God talking to a snake (ie "protoevangelium", religion likes to use big words for its absurdities), has God first requiring animal sacrifice before he gets round to killing himself in the form of a human sacrifice while he was being Jesus.
But of course any author can write a so called prophecy like this one and fulfill it later in the story. You can't use the story as "evidences" that the story is true. That's just silly .
Similarly with your argument that the Bible declares a "God with us" Jesus character will be born in Bethlehem, then tada, in the very same Bible, the "God with us" Jesus character is born in Bethlehem. What? If that is a prophesy fulfilled, anyone can do it. Write a story, make a prophesy in it, then a few pages later, or even in a separate story altogether, make it come true.
It is not anything like you have a rational let alone logical argument here dude.
I feel sure religious faith would encourage you to believe otherwise and that's ok if it's what rocks your boat, but if you are to be honest, it's most likely just not going to be possible for you to support what you believe with any reasoning.
On your end points, I really don't think your assertion that something cannot come out of nothing because it would take an Imaginary Giant Sky Goblin to intelligently magic everything, is at all compelling.
Nevertheless, many thanks too for the discussion. I'm open to hearing any logical and reasonable reasons why Christians believe the Bible. But ones other than the reliance upon blind uncompromising religious faith please, which serves only to distort and delude what would otherwise render itself to be no more than fiction, fantasy and fairy tale.
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