The Evolution of an E-mini Trader

[Huios]

I know what you are saying. Tight stops, and if you get stopped out, no biggie, just jump right back in.

But, if you look back at my trades, when I get stopped out, I don't get right back in, and miss the complete move.

Look at trade #3 yesterday. HH and HL all thru lunch. I knew this puppy was going to go up. Had a great entry, but it didn't pop thru the s/r line. Dropped back and I got out at the scratch. All that was fine and good. BUT, I didn't get back in and missed the move to the am high. 12 points if I would have rode the retrace at 14:30.

I can talk about short stops and getting right back in, but if I can't do it, if my psyche doesn't like it, whatever the reason, I need to do something else that works. Does bigger stops work for me, I don't know. It looked good on paper (MAE), but can I do it.

I'm satisfied with my entries. Not satisfied that I don't take every one. If I have to sit thru a trade going against me 2.91 pts, so I can make 12, hey, that is ok with me, as my guts go "gulp".

This really has me spinning. Again, it goes back to vultures post about trading in the two time frames. Scalping or Swing. That post keeps coming back to me, kinda like bad tuna salad. Just as soon as you think it is resolved. BUUUURRRPPP. Here it is again.

ps. 5 min charts, where have you been all my trading life!!!!!

 

[mbt3]

Huios.

Hello, have enjoyed your journey so far, and would like, if I may, to add to the good advise already given.

Your trading so far (appologies here, I cannot remember all the 14 pages gone by ) is either slightly up or slightly down. On balance you are doing well to survive. Regardless of the monies to be, and that are earnt, the first endevour is to survive.

If you have a process/system of trading that achieves this,, then imo I would not alter it, by playing around with stops.
What I see here is the lack of attention to your "reaction" to the result of the trade. This will be (and is for most) prevelant to the lossing trades.

It is a traders reaction to their trades that will determine their success (above and beyond the process of their trading being learnt ie tech analysis etc).

It is this that does not allow the trader to see "opportunity".
Being wrong on a trade is a very good sign of which way to now trade the market. The speed with which you can alter your view of the market is the key. This speed of reaction is determined by how you react to the result of the last trade, and indeed how you are reacting to the trade you are in. Detachment from the outcome is a complex issue, but it is a necessity inorder to be able to turn your view in an instant.
Stay ahead of the market in your mind.
When we learn to stop "reacting" and learn to "respond", then we are in synce, and fluid.

Larger stops will result in larger losses. Sure it will also keep you in trades that will then profit, but you will have to increase both your threshold for profit as well as loss, inorder to benefit.

Regardless and either way, you will be "reacting". If you have not learnt (by you I mean traders) to "respond" rather than "react", you will probably find yourself with the same issues, just with larger losses when you are wrong.

Hope this helps. As I say this is only my thoughts of what i see, and I repeat, you have to learn how to survive first, inorder to truelly profit, so well done.

mbt3

Regards
mbt3

 

[easyrider]

Huios

If you get it figured out let me know because I have the same problem. I really believe that if I turn off the one minute charts and wait for clear setups on the five minute chart using a reasonable stop I would probably make more money. My problem is I love the one minute chart. I paid IB $187 in commissions yesterday trading one contract and broke even for the day. I cannot pull myself away from the screen. Almost every day I am up pretty good at some point but a lot of days I give it back cause I wont stop. I'm not quite ready to move to the longer time frame yet because I still have this feeling that I can get good enough to trade 50 times a day and still make decent money.

 

[spectre]

Originally posted by easyrider
[

My problem is I love the one minute chart. I paid IB $187 in commissions yesterday trading one contract and broke even for the day. I cannot pull myself away from the screen. Almost every day I am up pretty good at some point but a lot of days I give it back cause I wont stop. I'm not quite ready to move to the longer time frame yet because I still have this feeling that I can get good enough to trade 50 times a day and still make decent money. [/B]

You did 39 round trips on the 4th? Are you addicted to the excitement of trading/button clicking? 50 times a day trading 1 contract sounds a bit much to me?

 

[nitro]

Originally posted by spectre


You did 39 round trips on the 4th? Are you addicted to the excitement of trading/button clicking? 50 times a day trading 1 contract sounds a bit much to me?

I could easily trade the spoos this many times a day.

nitro

 

[spectre]

Would you mind my asking how many points do you gain/lose per trade that way?

 

[nitro]

Originally posted by spectre
Would you mind my asking how many points do you gain/lose per trade that way?

I trade the spoos infrequently because I find myself constantly paying attention to way to much NYSE, where I think I belong. However, I have traded the spoos easily 20 to 30 roundtrips where I felt that was the place to be on a given day.

My statement is only meant to say that 20-30 roundtrips when looking at 1 minute bars or a smaller time frame is no big deal.

In regards to points won or lost, I rarely risk more than 1/2 to 3/4 and I aim to make 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 handles- depending on what pivot caused me to take the trade.

nitro

 

[Dizzyspell]

Originally posted by easyrider
Huios

If you get it figured out let me know because I have the same problem. I really believe that if I turn off the one minute charts and wait for clear setups on the five minute chart using a reasonable stop I would probably make more money. My problem is I love the one minute chart. I paid IB $187 in commissions yesterday trading one contract and broke even for the day. I cannot pull myself away from the screen. Almost every day I am up pretty good at some point but a lot of days I give it back cause I wont stop. I'm not quite ready to move to the longer time frame yet because I still have this feeling that I can get good enough to trade 50 times a day and still make decent money.

This is where discipline comes into my trading plan. I am the same, I could keep hitting the buttons all day but the only person that wins is my broker and I hate that. Over trading is something I am aware of thats why once I reach 4-6pts profit I stop for the day and I don't care what happens after that.

Someone also asked what type of orders I use. Depends on the trade. If I am selling a d/top a limit order. Breakouts I use a stop limit order. Don't use market orders very often. And I always put a stop order on as soon as I am filled.

 

[Dizzyspell]

Originally posted by Huios
I know what you are saying. Tight stops, and if you get stopped out, no biggie, just jump right back in.

But, if you look back at my trades, when I get stopped out, I don't get right back in, and miss the complete move.

Look at trade #3 yesterday. HH and HL all thru lunch. I knew this puppy was going to go up. Had a great entry, but it didn't pop thru the s/r line. Dropped back and I got out at the scratch. All that was fine and good. BUT, I didn't get back in and missed the move to the am high. 12 points if I would have rode the retrace at 14:30.

I can talk about short stops and getting right back in, but if I can't do it, if my psyche doesn't like it, whatever the reason, I need to do something else that works. Does bigger stops work for me, I don't know. It looked good on paper (MAE), but can I do it.

I'm satisfied with my entries. Not satisfied that I don't take every

one. If I have to sit thru a trade going against me 2.91 pts, so I can make 12, hey, that is ok with me, as my guts go "gulp".

This really has me spinning. Again, it goes back to vultures post about trading in the two time frames. Scalping or Swing. That post keeps coming back to me, kinda like bad tuna salad. Just as soon as you think it is resolved. BUUUURRRPPP. Here it is again.

ps. 5 min charts, where have you been all my trading life!!!!!

I have attached a chart with some low risk entries for your trade 3. I took the breakout trade. Hope this helps.

Regards

 

[vulture]

Originally posted by easyrider
Huios

If you get it figured out let me know because I have the same problem. I really believe that if I turn off the one minute charts and wait for clear setups on the five minute chart using a reasonable stop I would probably make more money. My problem is I love the one minute chart. I paid IB $187 in commissions yesterday trading one contract and broke even for the day. I cannot pull myself away from the screen. Almost every day I am up pretty good at some point but a lot of days I give it back cause I wont stop. I'm not quite ready to move to the longer time frame yet because I still have this feeling that I can get good enough to trade 50 times a day and still make decent money.

If I had a nickel for every e-mini trader I have come across in the past 3 1/2 years who approached this market with this same attitude, I would have....(well you know the rest)...Seriously, EVERY trader begins his journey in the mini's with the following trading philosophy "I want to scalp 1 minute charts and make $500 per day"...It all sounds great, but people soon forget how important selectivity, patience, discipline, edge really are...If you aren't scaling trades or using tried and tested set-ups(even if they look real obvious or are very basic) you inevitably give up your discipline and find yourself in a whole bunch of real crappy trades...It is just too easy to push the button and once it becomes that easy to push the button, something is a bit off...

I don't want to come off with some sort of attitude that scalping sucks or that no one can make money scalping, cause that is bs...There was that author Gary Smith who dedicated an entire book to proving that HIS WAY was the ONLY WAY to trade...He even made a half-assed attempt back in 1998-99 to try and find scalpers and then discredit them...Of course, he also readily admitted that he only went long the spoos(oh and his numbers all stacked up in a generally uptrending market), closed the book the second I read this little fact...

But scalping is definitely the most advanced skill set as far as I am concerned...The level of self discipline needed, the quickness, the agility, the flexibility of mind, the ability to pair out positions quickly, the ability to scratch trades, the ability to trade size, etc, etc...those things don't happen overnight...

I think Huios hits upon alot of real trading issues in this journal...The biggest, by his own admission, is that he is cutting his winners short...If you get too far into the micro time frames, you will ALWAYS cut your winners short...A 1 minute chart makes a 2 point range look like a 10 pt range on a 30 minute chart...The noise factor during the mid-day doldrums makes the action look very real and very enticing, when in fact there is really nothing there...I have seen many traders get addicted to a 1 minute chart, it is a true addiction...I was there once myself...Glad I escaped that 1 minute trading hell...