The evil of Dpctors

[KeLo]

Clacy said:

Acupuncture = hocus pocus.

failed_trad3r said:

Your post sounded intelligent until you said that acupuncture helps you. There is no basis for that.

Before I would let someone stick thin needles into me, I researched the subject at the National Institute of Health website. I saved many articles on it. Some are free.

If you go to this NIH site: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez and input "acupuncture" and "immunity," you can read 133 "peer review" citations and/or abstracts regarding that narrow subject.

re: FDA

SAFE and EFFECTIVE

- Their [FDA] most famous blunder is the Thalidomide episode, where the drug caused 10,000 to 20,000 babies to be born without arms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalid...www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/320/7249/1561 There are other instances of doctor strikes when mortality dropped.

I would submit that while medical science has made progress such Jonas Salk's polio vaccine, that the main reason for longer life is cleaner and more food (including refrigeration), water and sanitation, as well as better shelter (HVAC). There are many variables involved. However, there are documented records of people living and working well past 100 in 3rd world countries without modern medicine readily available.

But, having already spent too much time on this post - this will be my last for a while. Even though I love a good debate, there are no judges, so what's the point?

 

[KeLo]

traderzones said:

spinn has some real star alternative QUACKS coming to his aid.

I also have observed the "ridicule tactic" (name calling) used by people who lack verifiable data. Where are your citations? Are you a medical professional?

 

[KeLo]

Clarification on FDA & Thalidomide

Most of the Thalidomide babies were born outside the U.S.. While the FDA did allow MDs to dispense on an experimental basis, it didn't (to its credit) grant approval for wide-spread marketing in the U.S. (at that time). So, to be clear, the number of birth defects/deaths was a worldwide number, not a USA only number.

Currently, the drug is available in the US for certain conditions, with warnings and pregnancy tests.

I realize that most of you won't read the citations, but I do wish to be as accurate as possible anyway.

 

[TraderZones]

Quote from KeLo:

traderzones said:

I also have observed the "ridicule tactic" (name calling) used by people who lack verifiable data. Where are your citations? Are you a medical professional?

You don't need to be a medical professional to But I am well degreed and studied in sciences. I can go toe to toe with anyone I have ever seen on this site.

try adding the following sites to your list: sciencedaily.com and livescience.com. It is a starting point to monitoring scientific findings for/against both medical and alternative medical areas.

Most of those who rail against the medical community have poor grasp of medical or science, and are easily swayed by those websites or self-appointed gurus selling "alternative" stuff, who constantly print this kind of stuff to sell bottles of snake oil.

A small % of things outside the medical norm have some value. But most of it has been debunked multiple times. Things like Reiki, Homeopathy, magnetic therapy and many others show no value under studies.

Of course, medical science has a long way to go. But it is far superior to those who rail against it, such as this thread.

As to acupuncture, it seems to have some value at some times for some people, but many times it proves useless. And it is prone to the placebo effect like many other things. Electroacupuncture generally fares better. Problem is, acupuncture is not usually covered by insurance, and it is regulated and there is a lot of overhype in its practictioners.

 

[oraclewizard77]

He never said doctors are evil, he said Dpctors are evil. Dpctors are the invisible people that give diseases, doctors are the ones that help cure diseases. He actually loves doctors. I am glad that I was able to clear this up.

 

[maxpi]

Quote from failed_trad3r:

Your post sounded intelligent until you said that acupuncture helps you. There is no basis for that. I agree with collodial silver. There is even a guy who used that silver even when he was never sick, and his skin turned blue. He claims never to be sick in 10 years that he is using collodial silver.

The few people that got blue skin in recent years made their own silver and did it badly. Done well with a constant current generator the silver particles are small and almost no amount can affect your skin. I have a nasal atomizer and 2-3 times a day spray my sinuses, drop some in my eyes and ears and I feel a bit better than ever... it's not as powerful as some antibiotics you get from a doctor but it's very broad spectrum, nothing can build immunity and over time it does seem to kill things off or suppress them to where they have no effect...

 

[acronym]

Quote from oraclewizard77:

He never said doctors are evil, he said Dpctors are evil. Dpctors are the invisible people that give diseases, doctors are the ones that help cure diseases. He actually loves doctors. I am glad that I was able to clear this up.

ROFL, I was wondering when someone might , er, "clear that up."


But, doctors dont cure anything, they prescribe medicine and recommended treatment. It works for some, depending on the situation, it works for most!!
Wow, all with derivatives of things that didnt kill to many rats, and "seemed" to work from experiments back in the day of bloodletting.

Take polio for example-the miracle, isn't that someone figured out a vaccine, but that it got past the blinkered, autocratic medical establishment of the day, at all.

Typhoid mary is another classic-as is the guy who figured out mosquito's carry malaria, nobody would give the guy the time of day until he showed clinical proof of transmission via mosquito's.
Or was it yellow fever? Wait, I think it was yellow fever.

Most, "market" responses to a clinical issue, yet were widely disregarded at the time.

 

[KeLo]

Acupuncture 'more than a placebo' [actual BBC article, with cite URL]

Last Updated: Saturday, 30 April, 2005, 22:57 GMT 23:57 UK


Acupuncture caused brain activity over and above a simple skin prick
Scientists say they have proof that acupuncture works in its own right.
Sceptics have said that any benefits gained from acupuncture are merely down to a person's expectation that the treatment will work.
But researchers at University College London and Southampton University say they have separated out this placebo effect.
Their findings, based on a series of experiments and brain scan results, are published in the journal NeuroImage.
Dummy treatment
The researchers used positron emission tomography (PET) scans to see what was happening in the brains of people having acupuncture treatment for arthritis pain.

The great bulk of trials to date do not provide convincing evidence of pain relief over placebo [dummy pill]

Professor Henry McQuay, University of Oxford
Each of the 14 volunteers underwent each of three interventions in a random order.
In one intervention, patients were touched with blunt needles but were aware that the needle would not pierce the skin and that it did not have any therapeutic value.
Another intervention involved treatment with specially developed "trick" needles that give the impression that the skin was being penetrated even though the needles never actually pierced the skin.
The needles worked like stage daggers, with the tip disappearing into the body of the needle when pressure is applied. This was designed to make the patients believed that the treatment was real.
The third intervention was real acupuncture.
Brain activity
When the researchers analysed the patients' PET scan results they found marked differences between the three interventions.
Only the brain areas associated with the sensation of touch were activated when the volunteers were touched with the blunt needles.
During the trick needle treatment, an area of the brain associated with the production of natural opiates - substances that act in a non-specific way to relieve pain - were activated.
This same area was activated with the real acupuncture but, in addition, another region of the brain, the insular, was excited by the treatment.
This was a pathway known to be associated with acupuncture treatment and thought to be involved in pain modulation.
Sarah Williams of the British Acupuncture Council said: "This is very positive news for acupuncture and this latest research is an exciting illustration of what acupuncturists have known for a long time - that acupuncture works and its effectiveness goes beyond the placebo effect."
Professor Henry McQuay, professor of pain relief at the University of Oxford and member of the Bandolier group that looks at the evidence behind different medical treatments, said: "The great bulk of the randomised controlled trials to date do not provide convincing evidence of pain relief over placebo.
"Some people do report that acupuncture makes them feel better.
"But it is extremely difficult, technically, to study acupuncture and tease out the placebo effect."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4493011.stm

Comment: It seems to me that a scan is much more scientifically relevant than just asking patients how they feel.

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from KeLo:

Acupuncture 'more than a placebo' [actual BBC article, with cite URL]

Last Updated: Saturday, 30 April, 2005, 22:57 GMT 23:57 UK


Acupuncture caused brain activity over and above a simple skin prick
Scientists say they have proof that acupuncture works in its own right.
Sceptics have said that any benefits gained from acupuncture are merely down to a person's expectation that the treatment will work.
But researchers at University College London and Southampton University say they have separated out this placebo effect.
Their findings, based on a series of experiments and brain scan results, are published in the journal NeuroImage.
Dummy treatment
The researchers used positron emission tomography (PET) scans to see what was happening in the brains of people having acupuncture treatment for arthritis pain.

The great bulk of trials to date do not provide convincing evidence of pain relief over placebo [dummy pill]

Professor Henry McQuay, University of Oxford
Each of the 14 volunteers underwent each of three interventions in a random order.
In one intervention, patients were touched with blunt needles but were aware that the needle would not pierce the skin and that it did not have any therapeutic value.
Another intervention involved treatment with specially developed "trick" needles that give the impression that the skin was being penetrated even though the needles never actually pierced the skin.
The needles worked like stage daggers, with the tip disappearing into the body of the needle when pressure is applied. This was designed to make the patients believed that the treatment was real.
The third intervention was real acupuncture.
Brain activity
When the researchers analysed the patients' PET scan results they found marked differences between the three interventions.
Only the brain areas associated with the sensation of touch were activated when the volunteers were touched with the blunt needles.
During the trick needle treatment, an area of the brain associated with the production of natural opiates - substances that act in a non-specific way to relieve pain - were activated.
This same area was activated with the real acupuncture but, in addition, another region of the brain, the insular, was excited by the treatment.
This was a pathway known to be associated with acupuncture treatment and thought to be involved in pain modulation.
Sarah Williams of the British Acupuncture Council said: "This is very positive news for acupuncture and this latest research is an exciting illustration of what acupuncturists have known for a long time - that acupuncture works and its effectiveness goes beyond the placebo effect."
Professor Henry McQuay, professor of pain relief at the University of Oxford and member of the Bandolier group that looks at the evidence behind different medical treatments, said: "The great bulk of the randomised controlled trials to date do not provide convincing evidence of pain relief over placebo.
"Some people do report that acupuncture makes them feel better.
"But it is extremely difficult, technically, to study acupuncture and tease out the placebo effect."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4493011.stm

Comment: It seems to me that a scan is much more scientifically relevant than just asking patients how they feel.

lol you are gullible:

Health
Acupuncture Works ... As Placebo

posted: 20 January 2009 07:53 pm ET
Two separate systematic reviews of data show that acupuncture is an effective treatment for prevention of headaches and migraines. But the results also suggest that faked procedures, in which needles are incorrectly inserted, can be just as effective.
http://www.livescience.com/health/090120-acupuncture-placebo.html

 

[trendlover]

Vehn, KeLo poster show in the link a test.

3 random tests

1. Patient is AWARE his skin WILL NOT really be pierce (he know that) he is touched with blunt needle (not pierce the skin)
The PET scan show for this person: ONLY area of brain for touch is active.

2. Trick Needle. Patient think his skin is pierce (but not really) but patient think it is.
The PET scan show area of brain to opiates is active.

3. Real acupuncture
The PET scan show same opiate active like trick needle, BUT another place of the brain is active (the insular)


So look at insular.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another neuroscientist, Arthur D. Craig at the Barrow Neurological
Institute in Phoenix, went on to describe exactly the circuitry that
connects the body to the insula.

According to Dr. Craig, the insula receives information from
receptors in the skin and internal organs. Such receptors are nerve
cells that specialize in different senses. Thus there are receptors
that detect heat, cold, itch, pain, taste, hunger, thirst, muscle
ache, visceral sensations and so-called air hunger, the need to
breathe.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So they look at the acupuncture effect on how the brain receive (pain) information. So maybe that is possible it help?