The discussion boards will be just fine.

P

PTTrader

I'm an avid reader of TheStreet.com and Realmoney.com. However, I'm only a part time trader (hence PTTrader) and I've enjoyed learning from this group in the past 8 months or so. Magna, Hitman, Rtharp, etc. have really given some insight that I've felt helpful and I appreciate it.

Recently, I began to feel that discussion wasn't enough, so I wanted to trt the trading rooms of most of the traders on Traders Track. I was in MTrader's this week and I'm still laughing. I see Ken Wolf calling VRSN bottoms plenty of times (call the bottom until we get it right approach I guess). He even says to dump VRSN after one of the buys because he doesn't trust the CEO that appeared on CNBC. If that is a reason to go long and short, I'm reading the wrong books. Then Shawn Wolf going on Traders Track saying they were short oriented, and somehow got the final "bottom".

I wonder if Shawn is just Ken's alter ego. Heck, I think Janet and Michael Jackson may be the same also. Kidding.

Here's the logs from both of them..Tell me please. Were they long or short? After this past week of the trial, I guess discussion boards will be JUST FINE. Thanks again guys.

10/26/01 08:51:46 <echo2> KenWolff _ 05:57:33 VRSN getting a bit of buying..
10/26/01 08:52:11 <echo2> KenWolff _ 05:57:57 yeah.. we should see VRSN over 48 today.. ‘
10/26/01 08:53:45 <echo2> KenWolff _ 05:59:32 nope BOBO.. it is printing around 47
10/26/01 09:07:25 <echo2> KenWolff _ 06:13:12 _ INDICATOR _ MY BEST CHEAPIE TRADE IS AVAN,,, NORMALLY A BIZ WEEK STOCK WILL CLIMB EARLY,,, SO IT SHOULD NOT GO UNDER 4.20 AND SHOULD GO CLOSE TO 5... I EXPECT AN EARLY CLIMB ON VRSN ALSO
10/26/01 09:18:14 <echo2> KenWolff _ 06:24:01 VRSN may come back down near the support at 47... like HLIT did..
10/26/01 09:27:39 <echo2> KenWolff _ 06:33:26 _ INDICATOR _ MSFT CLIMBING OUT OF THE BOX... BUEYRS ARE STARTING TO MOVE IN.. I WOULD BUY VRSN SOON,,, SHOULD BOTTOM
10/26/01 09:30:15 <echo2> KenWolff _ 06:36:02 _ GET READY TO TRADE _ I DOUBT VRSN WILL GO UNDER 46,, LOOK FOR A BOTTOM SOON
10/26/01 09:30:30 <echo2> KenWolff _ 06:36:17 _ GET READY TO TRADE _ UNDER IT GOES 10/26/01 09:31:04 <echo2> KenWolff _ 06:36:50 _ GET READY TO TRADE _ VRSN REMINDS ME OF BRCD YESTERDAY,,, IT SHOULD HAVE A PRETTY GOOD BOTTOM
10/26/01 09:31:45 <echo2> KenWolff _ 06:37:32 _ INDICATOR _ OK I AM SEEING WIDER SPREAD BUYING.. I WOULD GO LONG VRSN
10/26/01 09:35:35 <echo2> KenWolff _ 06:41:21 _ GET READY TO TRADE _ IF VRSN DOES NOT GO OVER 46 SOON DUMP IT
10/26/01 09:37:52 <echo2> KenWolff _ 06:43:39 disappointed Jack... VRSN should have climbed over 46 easy..
10/26/01 09:39:39 <echo2> KenWolff _ 06:45:26 I woudl buy the next bottom again on VRSN below 45.50 ... It can go as low as 45,, but I doubt it..
10/26/01 09:40:14 <echo2> KenWolff _ 06:46:01 _ INDICATOR _ WE HAVE FAIRLY GOOD EARLY BUYING.. WE ARE NOT DONE YET SO VRSN CAN STILL MOVE UP,,, BUT RISK IS HIGHER NOW DUE TO IT NOT GOING OVER 46 MUCH..
10/26/01 09:42:22 <echo2> KenWolff _ 06:48:09 _ GET READY TO TRADE _ VRSN IS COMING DOWN,, SHOULD BOTTOM ABOVE 45,,, I WOUDL TRY THIS NEXT BOTTOM ONE MORE TIME
10/26/01 09:43:35 <echo2> KenWolff _ 06:49:22 _ GET READY TO TRADE _ VRSN DID NOT HOLD 45,,, 10/26/01 09:43:52 <echo2> KenWolff _ 06:49:39 _ GET READY TO TRADE _ VRSN SHOULD BOTTOM SOON 44,80 IS MY GUESS 10/26/01 09:44:00 <echo2> KenWolff _ 06:49:47 _ GET READY TO TRADE _ VRSN BOUNCING
10/26/01 09:46:47 <echo2> KenWolff _ 06:52:33 _ CLOSE TRADE consideration _ I WOULD GET OUT OF LONG POSITIONS NOW EXCEPT VRSN
10/26/01 09:54:11 <echo2> KenWolff _ 06:59:58 VRSN third bottom coming up... not a dumper.. but it is a weak un.... not good..
10/26/01 10:02:16 <echo2> KenWolff _ 07:08:03 yeah eagle,, third bottom was 44.09 on VRSN
10/26/01 10:09:45 <echo2> KenWolff _ 07:15:32 _ INDICATOR _ NEW HIGH ON QCOM,,, WE MAY SEE GOOD BUYING TODAY AGAIN,,, 10/26/01
10:11:36 <echo2> KenWolff _ 07:17:23 _ INDICATOR _ WE APPEAR TO BE TOPPING AGAIN...
10/26/01 10:26:57 <echo2> KenWolff _ 07:32:44 VRSN on CNBC
10/26/01 10:31:02 <echo2> KenWolff _ 07:36:49 we better dump VRSN... this guy is not to be trusted
10/26/01 11:11:46 <echo2> KenWolff _ 08:17:33 44 is the third bottom... but it is not a dumper either eagle.. I would be surprised to see it go under 44...
10/26/01 11:28:13 <echo2> KenWolff _ 08:34:00 _ LONG consideration _ I WOULD BUY THIS NEXT BOTTOM ON VRSN
10/26/01 11:28:38 <echo2> KenWolff _ 08:34:25 10 dollar drop,,, should be bottoming around 43..
10/26/01 11:28:58 <echo2> KenWolff _ 08:34:45 42 is about 20%... amazing..
10/26/01 11:29:34 <echo2> KenWolff _ 08:35:22 yeah.. still dropping.. should stop soon
10/26/01 11:32:25 <echo2> KenWolff _ 08:38:12 boy these guys are mean.. stocks can drop almighty fast..
10/26/01 11:36:49 <echo2> KenWolff _ 08:42:36 I think VRSN is at a bottom.. I doubt it will go lower... it should rise..
10/26/01 11:38:03 <echo2> KenWolff _ 08:43:51 Nawww.. wasn't worth a 10 dollar hit... crazy traders..
10/26/01 11:38:18 <echo2> KenWolff _ 08:44:05 their pain is our gain...
10/26/01 11:39:56 <echo2> KenWolff _ 08:45:44 VRSN can hit 40 before it heads up again... but for a daytrade it should be good off the last bottom... amazing selling..
10/26/01 11:50:04 <echo2> KenWolff _ 08:55:51 time to buy some VRSN
10/26/01 11:50:39 <echo2> KenWolff _ 08:56:27 might have to stomach a drop to about 40 though..
10/26/01 13:48:48 <echo2> KenWolff _ 10:54:35 up to you mwyerd.. this selling down to 43 is a negative sign... 44.70 now is not looking likely.. 10/26/01
13:49:55 <echo2> KenWolff _ 10:55:43 VRSN should held 43.70... if it were going higher than the previous high..44
10/26/01 14:46:34 <echo2> KenWolff _ 11:52:22 yeah. cannot squeek 2 bucks out of VRSN.. sad deal..

Shawn Wolff
VRSN
10/26/01 11:43 AM ET
Verisign (VRSN:Nasdaq) has continued to sell all morning. Based on the lack of pre-market support, we have been more short-oriented on the stock. As we near 42.67 though, we are watching with more interest for support. The –20% barrier tends to be a predictable barrier for large percentage dumpers. We are moving in with a long off that barrier, but keeping a tight stop just under that barrier.

AMGN, VRSN
10/26/01 1:21 PM ET
I am still long-oriented. Amgen (AMGN:Nasdaq) is still plugging along, and Verisign (VRSN:Nasdaq) is a little hesitant, but seems to have stabilized some off the –20% barrier, so I’m trailing stops a little loosely there.
 
PTTrader,

Glad I could be of help. Don't know about Ken's particular calls this past week in his room (re: VRSN), but don't sell him short. Although his techniques can be quite difficult to put into practice (although fairly easy to grasp), Ken Wolff is a superb trader, a genuinely nice guy, and always tries to be very helpful to traders no matter what their level. And, no, I'm not affiliated with mTrader or Ken in any way, it's just that there's less than a dozen traders I truly admire, traders in tune with the underlying rhythms of the market, and he happens to be one of them.
 
It's funny how these sites come and go. A while back TradingMarkets was super and RM sucked. Then TM kind of self-destructed to where it's not worth reading now. Even their EOD futures quotes are screwed up. But since Todd Harrison left, RM has been totally worthless.
 
AAA, I will agree with this. I liked Todd's hedge fund information type of posts and when that left, the Trading Diary turned into the Trading Track. This new James DePorre is pretty good I think, but without Todd, it lost it's lure.

Magna, I will trust your views, but I just can't turn a blind eye to seeing Ken say one thing, being wrong, then Shawn posting the complete opposite on a site that I read after the fact, being right. It just doesn't feel right as I was trying to learn something from the Track posts and now I'm wondering if they are just hindsight information.

I hope I'm not ousted now :) I really do like these threads. The rooms I'll leave to those that like to be told what to do and when.
 
i was a member of Kens site for several months.. i had just started trading nazdaq stocks and his site seemed to explain what i was seeing in the market.. unfortunately, buying bottoms and selling tops was a losing proposition for me.. i never could get the hang of buying something 5 times, stopping out 4 and hoping that the last bounce would cover the previous losses.. also, the idea of counting how many times a stock bounces and then trying to apply that the next day to a different stock does not appeal to me.. while i assume that Ken makes money trading with his method, i could not.. his system is at best "intuitive".. i need something a little bit more substantive than "i see buying" to risk my career as a trader on..

maybe im being too hard here but.. well.. ill tell you the story.. while i was in Kens room i met a guy who was also new to trading.. we kept an open DCC during our stay there.. my friend was really sold on the idea of buying bottoms and selling tops.. then, he left the room and moved over to realitytrader.. since i was not making progress after months with MT i decided to join him.. RT has an entirely different approach to trading.. instead of buying bottoms and selling tops, they primarily look for continuations.. and instead of guessing at price targets and "bounce areas" they have very clearly defined setups that they trade.. soon after moving to RT, my trading started making a slow turn for the better and i had my first profitable nasdaq month on my 3rd month with RT.. my friends trading was very erratic.. he was up 4k down 6k.. up 1200, down 3000.. i asked him all the time why he never took any of the calls made in the RT room.. the reason? he couldnt bring himself to sell at the days low or buy at the days high.. rather than use the setups offered at RT, he was still trying to use MT methods.. one of the biggest problems with trading based on gut feelings or what a stock "should" do is that when the stock doesnt perform as expected, it can be very hard to admit that you were wrong.. and if you are wrong about a bottom on a fast moving stock you can lose alot of money in just a few seconds of indecision.. my friend blew out his account for good a few weeks ago and had to go back to work.. do i blame Mtrader? heck no, my friend traded his own account and has to be responsible for his own actions.. did the methods he learned at mtrader make some contribution to his losses? i think so.. my friend has the potential to be an excellent trader.. he is intelligent, hard working, and for the most part a disciplined person.. but he was using an approach that frankly is either very difficult to execute, or impossible to execute profitably over the long term for most people.. i think the first post on this thread is a clear example of the weakness of buying bottoms/selling tops.. of course someone will point to a time when the first bottom worked and the stock went to the moon.. and thats exactly why my friend used to hang on to this method..

btw.. i have no affiliation with any service except as a student of RT..

-qwik
 
Magna you frequently seem to know what you are saying so therefore I believe Ken is a nice guy and I shouldn't sell him short and this statement is not directed a magna, but that Ken Wolff log is a disgrace. I can not believe that is offered to the public as trading information. (I would need to see more but it sounds like Reality Trader has something to offer.)

I considered erasing this post because I do not want to start anything but again, I really was amazed.
 
I have a lot of respect for Ken Wolff (I'm not familiar with Shawn Wolff), and do not believe that one trading log defines a trader's career over many, many years. At the same time I have no quarrel with Qwik's assessment because, as I already mentioned, Ken's trading style is very difficult to successfully and consistently implement. It's probably best if you want to get a better feel of the man, his view of trading, his way of playing different markets, etc. to take a look at his weekly column at theStreet.com. You can see the index of the entire collection at:
http://find.thestreet.com/cgi-bin/texis/author/?au=A0872523&hs=2

Also he just came out with a new book called Trading on Momentum: Advanced Techniques for High Percentage Day Trading, which was co-written by Chris Schumacher, one of the founders of Reality Trader.

Don't get me wrong. I don't trade Ken's style as I have found it doesn't suit my methodologies nor temperament. But that doesn't take anything away from his demonstrated ability over a long period of time, and I respect what he's accomplished and his unique plays with various markets. It's doable, it's certainly not for everyone or even for most. In the same vein Praetorian2 has a unique way of playing reversals on downtrodden stocks where the selling is running out of steam. That style is also not for me (nor most) yet I respect his take on the market and his success.
 
I just read Ken Wolff's new book and I was extremely dissapointed. It is just fluff. He spends around 3 pages explaining that a trader has to be careful that his quotes are not late!

I'm a regular at realmoney.com and in my opinion Ken's style is one that rode the wave in the mo-mo mania of the 90's. It does not translate well to a slower market or to a bear market. Also in his contributions at rm.com he is often just describinb past market action, as in 'well the market went up, that's surprising we were expecting it to go down, but then the market will do what it wants' or some other similar drivvle. Todd Harrison was simply breathtaking. I never could believe that such a high calibre trader would actually post comments/ideas real time! Guess it was too good to be true.

His 'dumper' play is where he looks at stocks that are gapping down around 20% because he belives that at this level the stock will meet buying and therefor bottom. This is the strategy that he is attempting to use in the VRSN play on the diary you provided.

The interesting thing is that he hasn't noticed that 'dumper' plays are much better sold short in a bear market than bought. In a bull market a gap down is looked at as profit taking or an opportunity for fresh money to go long.

In a bear market a large gap down triggers stop losses and makes people start thinking 'Oh God! not again....!' and panic.
 
Ken Wolff is a great trader but his chat site should have a disclaimer warning that his methods are not suitable for inexperienced traders. I often take multiple small stops searching for the top or bottom. Goes with the territory.
 
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