The Different Kinds of Libertarians

[Maverick74]

Quote from 2cents:

Everyone must pay, agreed, even $1. The spirit is to be inclusive, not exclusive, in that area at least. Not sure where we don't agree. No doubt it is possible to create a federal healthcare tax but you guys have the benefit of living in a federation of 50+ independent states with a common language, currency, military... perhaps it's just as well to experiment at state level first, then upgrade if need be? Re property rights even China is taking measures to actually enforce them more strictly across the land, am not sure what your point was there to be honest, it is one of the pillars of modern society. Re government bureaucracy and the political class i think they are 2 separate problems. I tend to look at bureaucrats in the same way as i look at admin staff in the businesses i am involved in. Of course one of the missions of a government is to keep people employed, but not at all costs obviously, a balance must be found, and i think generally the balance is there, with a few costly exceptions... same as for universal healthcare, were there are abuses, eg wanton bureaucratic job creation, they must be denounced, brought back in line... in a complex world some measure of policing is required, that's a collective responsibility, and everyone must pay for it too... as for the politicians i understand the distaste... but to wrap up i'd say (universal) healthcare is an area where you guys should bite the bullet and just make it work, the libertarian ethos cannot provide any useful guidance there... now do you want to discuss pensions? personally from a state-guarantee standpoint i'd want to see them limited to people who've held real hardship postings, worked in coal mines etc or put themselves in harm's way eg in the military... the rest should be renegotiable / adjustable year on year...

Two cents, I don't think we are necessarily disagreeing here, I just don't understand the negative overtones against libertarianism. As I've stated before, we really don't have a libertarian party in this country nor do we have any libertarian politicians. Even Ron Paul would describe himself as a Barry Goldwater Republican. The tea party is hardly libertarian. I just don't understand the criticism directed at them.

As far as as universal healthcare, look, we tried it on a state level in MA. A pretty wealthy and pretty liberal state. What happened? It bankrupted the state. Here is what has to happen. Before we even think about getting the government involved we need to solve the cost issue. We need to cut the cost of healthcare in half. We need to fix the system and probably get rid of managed care altogether. Once all that happens we can have a discussion on ways we can possibly subsidize it.

However, it would be absolute suicide to have the government use tax dollars to subsidize or bankroll a system that is already broken and corrupt. You don't subsidize things that don't work. You fix them first. Otherwise all you are doing is throwing good money after bad.

Case in point, education. Jimmy Carter created the department of education in 1979. Our schools were broken and the Japanese and European kids were kicking our ass on science and math scores. So we threw 100's of billions at a system that was not working and what happened? It got worse. Test scores went down every year and drop out rates went higher. Instead of fixing the problem, we just wrote checks.

We also have some serious cultural problems in this country which is pretty typical of empires that have reached their peak. We are fat, lazy and complacent and now feel entitled. The fact of the matter is young people today would rather buy i-phones then take care of their body. Even the most affluent among us treat their bodies like shit. They have all the money in the world to eat right and exercise yet they are fat and lazy. So it's not just a poverty issue or a minority issue. No amount of government money is going to fix that. In fact, the government handouts only make it worse. The less we have to work, the fatter we get.

The real problem in this country is not libertarians, it's that we don't have any libertarians. We could sure use a few right about now.

 

[2cents]

Mav it depends how one goes about (living) the libertarian ideals really. To me they aren't bad per se, just too simplistic and too thin, no offense meant. For one they ignore the very foundations and dynamics of our world, the fact that it is predatory, there is really no respite, just the illusion of it. Because we are at the top of the chain. For now. Anyway getting back to earth for a sec... now when it comes to Rothbart and the likes i say "intellectual fraud", "dishonnest discourse"... interestingly some of the rhetorical methods deployed by the Mises Institute clowns were honed by our communist friends back in the day. They betray "libertarianism" to say the least, to the extent they are associated with it, and via Ms Rand they are. Mises' "Human Action" is compelling, to me it was, at first (I felt the same with Atlas...), but the axiomatic foundation of praxeology holds no practical truth, just a creed, not a bad one, but just a creed. I feel about the Mises 'Institute about the same as i feel about the Scientology Church... but going back to libertarians... as long as they are not hoodwinked by the "austrian" bollocks economics and don't go to rallies with Ron Paul to abolish central banking mechanisms for instance, fiat money for instance, ie stuff i happen to understand well, i don't have any issues...

now going back to your last point, i think too many folks are taught and just live by a "selfishness is good" doctrine and apply it indiscriminately and everytime it suits their circumstamces. It's become a mantra. For these folks there is no need to think anymore, as long as they do what they want, when they want, the world will take care of itself, it's all good. Obviously it's not, as you also pointed out. So how does one reverse the trend? Good luck trying to explain to the young folks now that when Ms Rand wrote her books the world was a teeny bit different, now it's time to leave the couch, pick a hill, tighten your shoe laces and get going. They don't want to read it that way. So, while Atlas may have been very inspirational back then and for all the right reasons, maybe it's just not the right book to put in couch potatoes hands right now... and sadly America is full of them

I think you need to jail more bankers, not central bankers, you need to change the ownership structure of the Fed, and reinforce it as a vital central institution, otherwise the alternative is cowboy capitalism and seriously, that's only good for a very few (am fine thanks, but given a choice that's not the world i want to live in). Is Finance more important than Education? Hell no, but young folks need to believe again that morals matter, ethics matter, otherwise why bother, lets just make money and stuff will fall right into place, right? Why Cioffi & Tannin are not in jail i cannot begin to understand... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33836825/ns/business-us_business/