Prince gives away is new CD for free, recording industry goes ballistic:
http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2114557,00.html
http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2114557,00.html
The day when the recording industry died
- Thread starter Pekelo
- Start date
It's time musicians bypassed the recording companies and moved to the internet.
If musicians charged just 2$ per CD, they would double their income and seems like sales would increase substantially.
What about promotion of their CD? A lot of artists complain about poor sales promotion by their record co. anyway.
Seems like new companies would fill the void left by the recording companies to promote sales, and if a download site for all musicians became as popular as myspace or youtube.....
If musicians charged just 2$ per CD, they would double their income and seems like sales would increase substantially.
What about promotion of their CD? A lot of artists complain about poor sales promotion by their record co. anyway.
Seems like new companies would fill the void left by the recording companies to promote sales, and if a download site for all musicians became as popular as myspace or youtube.....
$2.00 for something that costs an average of .85 to $1.00 to press (CD's), now downlads are another story.....
Then there are the man hours in marketing it... That has a price tag...
SO I personally think $2 is too Low.
Lets go further....
How much does it cost to produce, record and Mix a DECENT project, not the garbage you can buy off the street for $2.00
How many songs/ how many CD's would you have to sell to recoup those costs to even breakeven????
Remember, you get what you pay for.
Average Indie project will run 10-20K in production Costs (a Good Project that is...)
Some of us enjoy listening to quality even if it is bit compressed into an MP3 or AAC
If quality didnt matter, the cassette would still be a major medium....
Badly produced CD's become coasters overnite...
Poor music doesnt deserve marketing....
(These are non-linear ramblings)
It's hard enough to sell 2K CD's out your trunk for peanuts,, imagine having to sell 30K just to recoup your investment costs....
Prince is valued at well over $100M. And hasnt put out a good project since the mid 80's. Perhaps one hit song here or there, but no comprehenseive projects with multiple hits like Purple Rain....
Just Nice neat collections.....
He can afford to JUST give it away, and "Show great sales" because you bought a Concert ticket. he has been marketed. His brand is like Tide... Known the world over.
The new artists Lusts after his type of marketing and promotion....
Thats the true cost of a CD... You dont make money with a CD. It's an expensive Business Card... Touring is where the Money is at....
Then there are the man hours in marketing it... That has a price tag...
SO I personally think $2 is too Low.
Lets go further....
How much does it cost to produce, record and Mix a DECENT project, not the garbage you can buy off the street for $2.00
How many songs/ how many CD's would you have to sell to recoup those costs to even breakeven????
Remember, you get what you pay for.
Average Indie project will run 10-20K in production Costs (a Good Project that is...)
Some of us enjoy listening to quality even if it is bit compressed into an MP3 or AAC
If quality didnt matter, the cassette would still be a major medium....
Badly produced CD's become coasters overnite...
Poor music doesnt deserve marketing....
(These are non-linear ramblings)
It's hard enough to sell 2K CD's out your trunk for peanuts,, imagine having to sell 30K just to recoup your investment costs....
Prince is valued at well over $100M. And hasnt put out a good project since the mid 80's. Perhaps one hit song here or there, but no comprehenseive projects with multiple hits like Purple Rain....
Just Nice neat collections.....
He can afford to JUST give it away, and "Show great sales" because you bought a Concert ticket. he has been marketed. His brand is like Tide... Known the world over.
The new artists Lusts after his type of marketing and promotion....
Thats the true cost of a CD... You dont make money with a CD. It's an expensive Business Card... Touring is where the Money is at....
and the record industry is now trying to get a piece of touring, marketing money, etc. since their long-held monopoly on artists has been partially circumvented.
artists who have a core base can do many things like this; todd rundgren was one of the first to do stuff with his fans. prince's stuff has been decent in the late 90s / early 00s, though not my cup of tea.
i'll shed no tears for the industry, however. see _hit men_ for a look at the industry, and then the book by semisonic _so you wanna be a rock and roll star_ and jen trynin's book (both came out in the last couple years) for some idea of how artists are wheeled in and spit out.
btw - when there's an industry release party for an artist, or materials sent out to press, and the artist is moderately successful, it all comes out of the artist's pocket.
artists who have a core base can do many things like this; todd rundgren was one of the first to do stuff with his fans. prince's stuff has been decent in the late 90s / early 00s, though not my cup of tea.
i'll shed no tears for the industry, however. see _hit men_ for a look at the industry, and then the book by semisonic _so you wanna be a rock and roll star_ and jen trynin's book (both came out in the last couple years) for some idea of how artists are wheeled in and spit out.
btw - when there's an industry release party for an artist, or materials sent out to press, and the artist is moderately successful, it all comes out of the artist's pocket.
Well when one says industry, they need to see the Majorsss. I am an Independant Engineer who mixes for a lot of smaller labels and indies.... I believe in their success if they are willing to work hard at it....
SO far as The touring side... That happens with New Artists. Who has to foot the bill to get them an Appearance on the Late Night Shows... What club is going to hir a no named nobody.. So the Labels have to front that as well. So of course they want a piece of the pie. How long does that last??? How dumb are you as an artist IMO....
You figure if you lock into a 3 to 5 year deal with a label (2-3 CD's), what do you do afterwards.... are you proactive enough to take that success and add to it... I have worked with many artists who have Long outlived their record deals and still Gig 100- 200 shows a year.... Making upwards of 5-10 mil per year or more (depending upon how big they ever became)
Short term you wont make a mint, unless you are REALLY BIG... otherwise you fall into the 95% of artists that never make it big....
Record Biz is no different than any other Biz... Trading is what... 90% fail, 10% succeed????
SO is the Music Business...
There are lots of artists who never blew up BIG but have nice LONG careers...
Problem is we only look at the Big guns and never pay attention to the heart and soul of the business. The little guy....
Its a nice thing, when it is all said and done, to travel everywhere for free, and work for an hour and walk away with a 1/2 years salary (to most people)
SO is the industry dead??? Nah. Prince is doing Prince.. Making a statement.... But you forget about the little "NEW" guy. People support who they believe in....
If we all gave it away, why would one make music (aside from love of the craft)
Would you trade if you ONLY lost money continuosly... Perhaps you would... Thats no different than a Gambling addict, an alcoholic, Drug addict...
Working for free is destructive behavior... How do you eat, where do you live??? I've never seen the electric company give out free electricity... SOmebody somewhere always pays.... The industry is PAYING for their past abuses... Yet they still make money... Radio stations play music PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR so they can get advertising dollars to keep their stations afloat....
and so on....
SO far as The touring side... That happens with New Artists. Who has to foot the bill to get them an Appearance on the Late Night Shows... What club is going to hir a no named nobody.. So the Labels have to front that as well. So of course they want a piece of the pie. How long does that last??? How dumb are you as an artist IMO....
You figure if you lock into a 3 to 5 year deal with a label (2-3 CD's), what do you do afterwards.... are you proactive enough to take that success and add to it... I have worked with many artists who have Long outlived their record deals and still Gig 100- 200 shows a year.... Making upwards of 5-10 mil per year or more (depending upon how big they ever became)
Short term you wont make a mint, unless you are REALLY BIG... otherwise you fall into the 95% of artists that never make it big....
Record Biz is no different than any other Biz... Trading is what... 90% fail, 10% succeed????
SO is the Music Business...
There are lots of artists who never blew up BIG but have nice LONG careers...
Problem is we only look at the Big guns and never pay attention to the heart and soul of the business. The little guy....
Its a nice thing, when it is all said and done, to travel everywhere for free, and work for an hour and walk away with a 1/2 years salary (to most people)
SO is the industry dead??? Nah. Prince is doing Prince.. Making a statement.... But you forget about the little "NEW" guy. People support who they believe in....
If we all gave it away, why would one make music (aside from love of the craft)
Would you trade if you ONLY lost money continuosly... Perhaps you would... Thats no different than a Gambling addict, an alcoholic, Drug addict...
Working for free is destructive behavior... How do you eat, where do you live??? I've never seen the electric company give out free electricity... SOmebody somewhere always pays.... The industry is PAYING for their past abuses... Yet they still make money... Radio stations play music PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR so they can get advertising dollars to keep their stations afloat....
and so on....
Sorry, missed this part...
Does it REALLY come out of the artists pocket????
Average intro contract used to be 250K up front money to produce a project. Thats a Loan, not a gift....
Videos to promot the project.... If you were an indie and needed a Video, who'd pay for it??? YOU would... same model here, it comes out of the profit of the project... Thats NORMAL BUSINESS..
TO bad we have a Welfare metality in the US.... I dont hate the industry, I work with it. I have produced artists... It came out of the cost of the project.. Initially my pocket, but I had to recoup the costs.....
Release Party. Is it mandatory that you have one??? No... Negotiate that if you want to... However as an Indie when I did a release party, it cost ME.... I had to recoup that cost fromt eh sales of the project... No sales, I just trew good money after bad..
Who funds your trading account. You do. And if you blow out, whos loss is it ?? Yours... SO has to refill it?? You do....
Business 101... Every Venture must pay for itself before you see profit, ELSE you should ditch it and move on....
Lastly.... When I come to you and say I'll make you a star... Who takes all the risk??? Me.. The INVESTOR......
I want my cut... I put up all the money, and you put up Sweat Labor.... Trust me... I'll get mine back FIRST!!!!
If you dont like the terms, do it with YOUR MONEY instead.....
Thast PLAIN OLE BUSINESS.......
true nuf, giles. when i was doing things (from the writing side), i mainly dealt with majors. indies tend to be better, though there are some that are 10* worse than majors because they know, for their 'niche', they're the premier indie and screw the artists worse.
on the touring side - the costs for letterman, leno, etc. are dirt cheap. back in the day, all the publicists i worked with (in nyc and l.a.) knew who was booking for those shows, and knew what the angles were. it's a matter of them having buzz, and most of them could practically walk the CD over from their offices to 54th st (in nyc). but courier's so much easier, especially when you're not paying for it.
> What club is going to hir a no named nobody..
actually, plenty of clubs. that's how bands get started. c'mon ,you know that.
but then after that, it's a matter of pitching the band, which is on X label, and has Y hit, and here's the press kit with the reason why there's a buzz, and coming to your town, and working out the negotiations. and there's almost a set club list for bands; if you play club A in new york, you'll play toad's place in CT, or lupo's in providence, and if you've got an extra date maxwell's in hoboken, TLA in philly, etc.
theoretically, touring for a young band = increased sales / fanbase, for an older band = big bucks for the artist.
> You figure if you lock inot a 3 to 5 year deal with a label (2-3 CD's), what
3-5 year, 2-3 CD? have things changed *that* much in the past couple years? i remember majors doing something like 7 yr, 5 CD contracts. if that's changed, then i'm wrong...
> Record Biz is no different than any other Biz
i'd guess that less than 10% of the artists are profitable, because of the way the labels screw even artists which DO achieve some level of success.
>There are lots of never blew up BIG but have nice LONG careers...
true...they might be giants is a perfect example.
> Its a nice thing, when it is all said and done, to travel everywhere for free, and work for an hour and walk away with a 1/2 years salary (to most people)
except that it's not like that at all. the bus rides are tedious. most phoners (interviews) are ridiculous..the schmoozes with radio station boys who want nothing to do with you other than the free booze, or to do the favor of this interview so that they can get the interview they *really* want...ugh.
the number of artists i interviewed who were impressed i actually listened to their whole album...
i could never do that.
the industry's not dead, and music will exist. but the artists who first embraced myspace (and now all the new ones; sorry, i don't keep up with it enough) have enough of a core base that they can survive WITHOUT major labels, or even major indies.
you're putting up a lot of straw men about music for free; i don't support that, just that the artists get seriously screwed on pay rates. if you cut back the promotional costs and lawyers fees, and sunk that back into the pr flacks at the labels and the artists, it would be much more equitable.
on the touring side - the costs for letterman, leno, etc. are dirt cheap. back in the day, all the publicists i worked with (in nyc and l.a.) knew who was booking for those shows, and knew what the angles were. it's a matter of them having buzz, and most of them could practically walk the CD over from their offices to 54th st (in nyc). but courier's so much easier, especially when you're not paying for it.
> What club is going to hir a no named nobody..
actually, plenty of clubs. that's how bands get started. c'mon ,you know that.
but then after that, it's a matter of pitching the band, which is on X label, and has Y hit, and here's the press kit with the reason why there's a buzz, and coming to your town, and working out the negotiations. and there's almost a set club list for bands; if you play club A in new york, you'll play toad's place in CT, or lupo's in providence, and if you've got an extra date maxwell's in hoboken, TLA in philly, etc.
theoretically, touring for a young band = increased sales / fanbase, for an older band = big bucks for the artist.
> You figure if you lock inot a 3 to 5 year deal with a label (2-3 CD's), what
3-5 year, 2-3 CD? have things changed *that* much in the past couple years? i remember majors doing something like 7 yr, 5 CD contracts. if that's changed, then i'm wrong...
> Record Biz is no different than any other Biz
i'd guess that less than 10% of the artists are profitable, because of the way the labels screw even artists which DO achieve some level of success.
>There are lots of never blew up BIG but have nice LONG careers...
true...they might be giants is a perfect example.
> Its a nice thing, when it is all said and done, to travel everywhere for free, and work for an hour and walk away with a 1/2 years salary (to most people)
except that it's not like that at all. the bus rides are tedious. most phoners (interviews) are ridiculous..the schmoozes with radio station boys who want nothing to do with you other than the free booze, or to do the favor of this interview so that they can get the interview they *really* want...ugh.
the number of artists i interviewed who were impressed i actually listened to their whole album...
i could never do that.
the industry's not dead, and music will exist. but the artists who first embraced myspace (and now all the new ones; sorry, i don't keep up with it enough) have enough of a core base that they can survive WITHOUT major labels, or even major indies.
you're putting up a lot of straw men about music for free; i don't support that, just that the artists get seriously screwed on pay rates. if you cut back the promotional costs and lawyers fees, and sunk that back into the pr flacks at the labels and the artists, it would be much more equitable.
We agree, just have 2 differing perspectives a few points....
1. The costs are dirt cheap?? Then I supposse travel and hotel stays dont count. Plus the cost of the Band unless you are a track act.. Thats not dirt cheap... If you are an east coast artists and have to go out west with an entourage..... A cost is a cost, and they quickly add up.
2. If you consider making 2 - 3k for an event "being hired" by a club... I can concur....
3. Depends upon the "level" of the artist for the length of the deal. Most deals I've been involved in were 3 projects at the most with extensions built in of course, but the gurantee was MAX 3 CD's. Of course we are probably speaking, again, from 2 different sides of the market.
4. Bus rides are tedious if you are not on a nice coach. I;ve done Bus Tours... I prefer bus tours over plane flights anyday... Getting up to be at the airport 90 minutes before the flight is a PITA. Especially if you are doing 4 spot dates each weekend... GRUELING.. you spend 6-10 hours at the airport everyday....
5. I agree that it COULD be more equitable, but again Business is Business. Labels could never have gotten away with the LOW percentages. IF... Artists had revolted, but they didnt... and here we are.....
AGain, think of how many artists flounder around....
And finally, what is the TRUE cost of MySpace advertising... How many hours, dod you spend in front of it.. TIME IS MONEY.. I live by that... Wasted Time is Wasted Money... Every hour you spend building a fan base is an Hour you are "paying" yourself... If you never sell a CD, or only eek out a TINY following..... You are paid very little. It's all relative....
When I got in the game, I got in the game with ESTABLISHED artists. Who had a plan and worked it. Who make 30K + per show Minimum..... And make the Promotor pay all the travel costs.....
I came into the Indie Scene when I became a Studio Engineer..... It was a different world than Being FOH.. But just as fun nonetheless....
I am still Learning, but I have a solid grasp.. I dont tour as much as I used to. I prefer running an Indie Label.
I make more money with less headache that way... Marketing costs are pretty much fixed aside from the normal COLA increases the marketers charge every 3 years, but that can be negotiated.. Having done this from start to finish a number of times, I am WELL AWARE OF EVERY DIME OF COST....
And if you ship 200K CD's and only sell 100K, thats 100K of Money laying around that you have to get back.... Afterall, they do still return unsold product.... That ends up on your shelves.....
1. The costs are dirt cheap?? Then I supposse travel and hotel stays dont count. Plus the cost of the Band unless you are a track act.. Thats not dirt cheap... If you are an east coast artists and have to go out west with an entourage..... A cost is a cost, and they quickly add up.
2. If you consider making 2 - 3k for an event "being hired" by a club... I can concur....
3. Depends upon the "level" of the artist for the length of the deal. Most deals I've been involved in were 3 projects at the most with extensions built in of course, but the gurantee was MAX 3 CD's. Of course we are probably speaking, again, from 2 different sides of the market.
4. Bus rides are tedious if you are not on a nice coach. I;ve done Bus Tours... I prefer bus tours over plane flights anyday... Getting up to be at the airport 90 minutes before the flight is a PITA. Especially if you are doing 4 spot dates each weekend... GRUELING.. you spend 6-10 hours at the airport everyday....
5. I agree that it COULD be more equitable, but again Business is Business. Labels could never have gotten away with the LOW percentages. IF... Artists had revolted, but they didnt... and here we are.....
AGain, think of how many artists flounder around....
And finally, what is the TRUE cost of MySpace advertising... How many hours, dod you spend in front of it.. TIME IS MONEY.. I live by that... Wasted Time is Wasted Money... Every hour you spend building a fan base is an Hour you are "paying" yourself... If you never sell a CD, or only eek out a TINY following..... You are paid very little. It's all relative....
When I got in the game, I got in the game with ESTABLISHED artists. Who had a plan and worked it. Who make 30K + per show Minimum..... And make the Promotor pay all the travel costs.....
I came into the Indie Scene when I became a Studio Engineer..... It was a different world than Being FOH.. But just as fun nonetheless....
I am still Learning, but I have a solid grasp.. I dont tour as much as I used to. I prefer running an Indie Label.
I make more money with less headache that way... Marketing costs are pretty much fixed aside from the normal COLA increases the marketers charge every 3 years, but that can be negotiated.. Having done this from start to finish a number of times, I am WELL AWARE OF EVERY DIME OF COST....And if you ship 200K CD's and only sell 100K, thats 100K of Money laying around that you have to get back.... Afterall, they do still return unsold product.... That ends up on your shelves.....