The Dark Side of Suppressing Emotions While Trading

Quote from Millionaire:

blaming anyone but themselves.
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And how is that not playing the victim


Learn to forgive yourself for Christ sakes..




and I pose this to you again......

If you can blow off a loss and move on...

Then why can't you put trading in its proper place..., and enjoy the rest of your life - when not trading

Letting go..., is letting go - No??








RN
 
Quote from Redneck:

Learn to forgive yourself for Christ sakes..



RN
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Millionaire


It was a bitter pill for me to swallow as well…

It took considerable work to get to where I could forgive myself for some of the things I’ve done in my life – and then let them go

I had to set them free so they no longer encumbered me


fwiw – some things I had to forgive myself for involved folks long dead…. I wrote them each a letter and filed it…

I have those letters to this day


RN
 
I see you are a UCI alumnus. It is a good (if underrated) school. I live very close by.

Gotta love Cha for Tea, the best bubble tea due to very strict quality control (they taste EVERY DRINK before handing it over to make sure it is right). Of course the unintended consequences of this policy include the staff being cracked out on caffeine the whole time.

At any rate, I'm not so sure it is easy to pick a number and then once you get in the vicinity just (on a serious level) walk away. I'm not saying that it isn't possible, just that the people that tend to be successful at it are the same people who simply adjust their ambitions and never get off the merry-go-round.

There is a certain point though where you will relax and things become relatively routine and boring until every 7th-10th year crisis shows up and makes it all interesting again. It sounds like you are there, so now is the time to start minting money. Enjoy it, it is rarefied air.





Quote from ksmetana:

Wow I can definitely relate to you OP. Like you I am in my late twenties.

I got into trading and wanted it SO BAD. When the drawdowns came, I knew it was due to my rational thinking being distorted by emotional sweeps. I would get sucked into the noise. I was intensely focused on my P&L.

I ripped my mind apart harnessing these emotions. A lot of people come into trading with alternative pursuits. Not me, I knew from the moment I discovered it that this was for me. I immediately felt the 'game.' The crowd psychology. I am an anthro major, it was completely fascinating. My market analysis was great, but my emotions owned my decision making. I would be right the majority of the time, but I was unable to manage trades well as my emotions took over upon entering.

Now when I trade, I am beyond all that, I tend to laugh a lot now while I trade. The stress is definitely down, things are much more calm.

However, I completely identity with you. My social life has dipped substantially. I feel very little. I can socialize, but I have no desire to. I don't get sad or happy. My sense of humor got hit pretty hard. I feel like this analytical machine. When I'm away from the markets, I never really disconnect. The analysis keeps grinding away, the self control continues. I suppose I believe that if I slip, I will go backwards.
I still feel myself in there, but I am constantly harnessing my emotions. My emotional control continues after trading hours.

haha

Though, whatever, my emotions never did anything for me, they held me back my whole life.

I am still relatively young in my trading career, I have more money to make. That sense of success and freedom will bring my emotions back to me. Until I have that freedom, I am willing to sacrifice the human in me.

Unlike you, I have not been trading for 10 years.
I have this belief that once my account is big enough, and I get that 'all-clear' sensation, my soul will rejuvenate, and I can re-emerge into the world.
I can take vacations, take time to myself, go out, spend some money, hang out with friends, whatever.
Right now, I feel that is all second to my priority: achieving my goal.
Though, after reading your story, perhaps it won't be so easy to get back to normal.

Shoot me an e-mail if you want, I'd like to hear more about what you've done to yourself

ksmetana@alumni.uci.edu
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If things are working out for you, then by all means keep chugging.

My point was that if someone hasn't been where the OP is, and therefore can't really empathize with his/her situation, then it doesn't make any sense why they would be commenting in a negative way, offering advice, flaming, or what have you.

If you are claiming you have been there, and all you have to do is compartmentalize to solve the problem, then we just disagree which isn't a big deal.

In terms of letting go of losses, yes absolutely for your average run of the mill trade this should be happening for someone at a high level.

The problem is getting to that high level and staying there over long periods of time takes pain (for some of us at least) and the discussion surrounds how this emotional pain in the forging of a successful trader impacts that trader outside of trading.


Quote from Redneck:

That'll put me 20+ years trading - Looking forward to it..

I agree, I am insecure, and I've hit walls - it is why I use stops - without fail


In the mean time enjoy being a victim - I simply choose not to be....

Some like to wallow, and seek solace it their plight

Didn't expect you'd get it anyway - so don't sweat it


eta;

I'll ask you the same question;

If you can blow off a loss and move on...

Then why can't you put trading in its proper place..., and enjoy the rest of your life - when not trading

Letting go..., is letting go - No??



RN
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And if the OP had asked me to elaborate on compartmentalizing I would have oblidged…

Instead you made the comment I didn’t know what the fuck I was talking about – which obviously caught my attention

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This pain you reference – from what source does it originate

No need to answer – you and I both know – its pain we create for our selves….

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I maintain get your head screwed on straight there is need for pain….


There is work, set backs, things to learn, walls, more work, more set backs…..

But there is no need for pain – if we make it so


We agree on that?


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I’m not into memorializing anything – especially that which holds me back…

I am all about doing whatever is necessary to achieve my goals

iow – I try not to suffer my own ignorance – any longer than is absolutely necessary – for me to grow and move on - sans pain... As it simply serves no purpose, imo


RN





Quote from TD80:

If things are working out for you, then by all means keep chugging.

My point was that if someone hasn't been where the OP is, and therefore can't really empathize with his/her situation, then it doesn't make any sense why they would be commenting in a negative way, offering advice, flaming, or what have you.

If you are claiming you have been there, and all you have to do is compartmentalize to solve the problem, then we just disagree which isn't a big deal.

In terms of letting go of losses, yes absolutely for your average run of the mill trade this should be happening for someone at a high level.

The problem is getting to that high level and staying there over long periods of time takes pain (for some of us at least) and the discussion surrounds how this emotional pain in the forging of a successful trader impacts that trader outside of trading.
More...
 
Quote from Millionaire:

Great post.

I can relate to the OP too. I had a nervous breakdown in 2002. The pressures of losing at trading with a young family and big mortgage were just too traumatic. levels of mental pain that no one should have to experience, only saved cause a friend was able to find me work when i was out of cash. Then i had another bad experience in 2005...

I think i know how Livermore felt blowing up all those times.. he defintely had the 'thousand yard stare' towards the end..

As for losing the emotions, i think you start in trading (as in life in general), you really experience what you doing, you are there with the experience. You feel anger, hope, elation etc

After a while you start to become detached, you recognise your feelings for what they are, they are just feelings, they having nothing to do with trading the right way.

A traumatic trading experience will speed this process up and your neural pathways will definitely get rewired.

But as traders we will always still experience emotional extremes which we have to control/supress, this require lots of mental energy to maintain, and can make our lives unbalanced.

The only solution might to be to make your big fortune in trading over the first 10 or 15 years, then after that either trade really small (aiming to make just 10% to 15% a year, with really small drawdowns) or to give up trading completely and so you can concentrate all your energy on having a 'normal' life, what ever that is.

27sm.jpg

Jesse Livermore, November 27 1940, the day before he took his own life :(
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It doesn't really matter what you do (trading, business, etc.), but as long as you're after the big money you'll eventually develop a (psychological) carapace so thick you might not be able to shed it.

The only solution is as you've suggested: Set a goal where you'll stop after reaching it. This is what Bismarck did, he wanted to create a new nation with a progressive social policy and stopped after having achieved that end.

Your emotional component is far more valuable than money. Going further b/c of greed will consume you.

Live as abundantly as you need to achieve your divine purpose. Thinking you need to be rich or poor are both traps in of themselves that lead to nowhere.
 
Won’t disagree with any of this

I will add

Doesn’t sound like ‘the dark side”

Doesn’t entail being a victim

Doesn’t entail any pain

Does mean one evolves a thick skin so shit no longer bothers them – or does it….

Because enough will never be enough – if first you are not happy with yourself…
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Completely happy with our self – now there’s a novel concept – unfortunately so few ever find…….

Pity – really….

For that is where the real strength to endure…, the ability to take total control…, the ability to love…, the ability to enjoy…, and the ability to suffer set backs…, the ability to let it roll off your back…, the ability to accept what your dealt and move on..., the ability to forgive..., the ability to laugh at yourself, – and more – lies


It’s not what happens to us, but rather how we respond – that make us who, and what – we are…..

Here’s to looking in a mirror, and really liking who you see – sans any ego ( I am not perfect, but I am me - warts and all)


But I can also be more cut throat than the next bastard when it comes to trading - make no mistake
RN



Quote from Unquestionably:

It doesn't really matter what you do (trading, business, etc.), but as long as you're after the big money you'll eventually develop a (psychological) carapace so thick you might not be able to shed it.

The only solution is as you've suggested: Set a goal where you'll stop after reaching it. This is what Bismarck did, he wanted to create a new nation with a progressive social policy and stopped after having achieved that end.

Your emotional component is far more valuable than money. Going further b/c of greed will consume you.

Live as abundantly as you need to achieve your divine purpose. Thinking you need to be rich or poor are both traps in of themselves that lead to nowhere.
More...
 
well Redneck, different people trade under different circumstances
i think everyone knows what you need to do in trading
but as with many things in life, it is easier said than done
some people are in places in life that enable BETTER trading, enable easier control of one's self
if i had a hot wife, a house, plenty of money, etc, I wouldn't be posting here


with my situation, i can't just sit back relax and enjoy my life
oh a losing day, ill shrug it off with a beer at the beach tomorrow? not me, i don't have that luxury
i work 2 jobs and i will continue to work 2 jobs until i grind my way to that comfort zone
i do not ENJOY working 7 days a week
month after month
conversely, i do ENJOY the ultimate battle
i found a way to screw my mind up and get a head start beating the emotions out of my rational self. it just so happens that it also makes working the daily grind 50x easier.
by shutting myself out i shut the world out. i feel nothing when my friends are out doing something and im at work or sleeping or backtesting, when a pretty girl smiles or talks to me i cut it short and integrate her into the end goal, i was listening to the new radiohead album which typically provoke floods of emotion. i absolutely loved the music, the detail, the craftsmanship, but i FELT nothing!
i read steenbarger, he gives very good advice, solid stuff, but he is also a wealthy psychologist

some of us have to work our ass off for pennies to build our dream
sure, once you're a baller you can escape to la - la land and trade well, losing day - head to the beach
when i emerge, who knows what kind of person i'll be like
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that being said, yes I went to UCI, and I used to live right across the street from Cha for Tea hahaha, yeah they were very good. my favorite place down in Orange County was Brussel's Bistro in Laguna Beach, check it out sometime, best bolognese ive ever had, and ive been to italy. belgian beers on tap. they used to have a hot czech bartender, but i doubt she's still there. they also have live jazz on certain weekdays
http://www.brusselsbistro.com
 
For what ever this is worth

I grew up on a farm/ ranch with 13 siblings

I know what work is..., and being with out..., and getting hand me downs / goodwill’s finest

I put myself through school (took eight years)

And my wife ain’t the hottest around – but I love her and my kids with all my heart

I do the best I can - with what I got - every day

RN
 
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