The Dangers of Leverage

[Lucias]

Don,

Let me get this straight..

You've been quoted as saying that someone can go to your firm with 25k and make 250k the first year. (You have been quoted because you said that in person to me.)

That's amazing... really amazing

Every 1k gets converted to 10k. 25k*10 = 250k

Okay.. so hmm..

let's say I only have 5k * 10 = 50k.

50k isn't a bad a living. Why don't you accept 5k accounts? Given the size of your edge.. I believe average household income in America is around 55k. Obviously, you wouldn't give someone with 5k millions of your dollars but that's okay as they just want to make 50k to get a starter account.

Look forward to your explanation (and don't say fees, overhead, etc.. remember you do accept 25k accounts so within a year we have 50k so even if fees took 100% of initial capital then that still leaves 25k or a 5x return -- not bad).

Quote from Don Bright:

Let me interject something. I think you guys are comparing two different things here. "Portfolio" leverage implies holding stocks for a longer period in most cases. So, if you have $100k, and hold $500k in positions, then yes, the SPY position or whatever, could cost you a lot of money.

Now for traders, the "use of capital" can have a completely different meaning. As mentioned before, we like to trade the opening gaps. My top people had their best month in January, mostly from the opening and of course pairs.

By placing 30 buys and 30 short sells, for example, say 1,000 shares each. 2,000 shares x 30=60,000 shares. Average price, say $40. so, you have entered $2.4Million worth of orders, hoping to make $500-1,000 or so. Now, we know that you can't be filled on both long and short, so that cuts the "risk" by half, down to $1.2million. We generally run about a 10% fill rate, so that brings the amount down to about $120,000. Certainly reasonable.

And, with most hedging strategies, the use of capital does not necessarily equate to higher risk overall. Yes, "Stuff" can happen, but by spreading out your overnight pair portfolio, you can flatten that risk curve as well.

I'm sure my friend Mr. Maverick will have some objection to my analysis, but I know how he feels about the Chicago firms and their adversion to "naked" long or short positions as well.

FWIW,

Don

 

[Maverick74]

Quote from Lucias:

Don,

Let me get this straight..

You've been quoted as saying that someone can go to your firm with 25k and make 250k the first year. (You have been quoted because you said that in person to me.)

That's amazing... really amazing

Every 1k gets converted to 10k. 25k*10 = 250k

Okay.. so hmm..

let's say I only have 5k * 10 = 50k.

50k isn't a bad a living. Why don't you accept 5k accounts? Given the size of your edge.. I believe average household income in America is around 55k. Obviously, you wouldn't give someone with 5k millions of your dollars but that's okay as they just want to make 50k to get a starter account.

Look forward to your explanation (and don't say fees, overhead, etc.. remember you do accept 25k accounts so within a year we have 50k so even if fees took 100% of initial capital then that still leaves 25k or a 5x return -- not bad).

I'll take the other side of this trade. I say nobody is making 250k a year net at Bright on only 20k. That's my trade. It's a binary no touch option. Let's see how this trade pans out. Small size.

 

[Don Bright]

Quote from Lucias:

Don,

Let me get this straight..

You've been quoted as saying that someone can go to your firm with 25k and make 250k the first year. (You have been quoted because you said that in person to me.)

That's amazing... really amazing

Every 1k gets converted to 10k. 25k*10 = 250k

Okay.. so hmm..

let's say I only have 5k * 10 = 50k.

50k isn't a bad a living. Why don't you accept 5k accounts? Given the size of your edge.. I believe average household income in America is around 55k. Obviously, you wouldn't give someone with 5k millions of your dollars but that's okay as they just want to make 50k to get a starter account.

Look forward to your explanation (and don't say fees, overhead, etc.. remember you do accept 25k accounts so within a year we have 50k so even if fees took 100% of initial capital then that still leaves 25k or a 5x return -- not bad).

Hi again, I guess. Sure we've had traders come in with $25k and make $250k. Not the normal for new people, obviously. You seem to be speaking about ROI, not actual earnings. $5k or $500k in deposit is not the main point. It's the use of capital required to make a decent living. Sure, even though you want me to avoid the obvious, it does cost something to get started. Licensing and all that, monthly costs, but that's not a big thing overall.

Many with $200k only make $100k. Some withdraw thousands every month, so I never know how much more they might have made of they kept more in their accounts. Apples and oranges, it's the work that is being done each day.

As in most business ventures, lack of initial capital is the cause of most failures. Our business is no exception. After spending time and money to get involved, in any business, one should not feel forced to make money right away. I have always told new people, that it generally takes 6-12 months before they can expect to be profitable. And it costs something to keep the lights on in a restaurant, or to keep the quotes coming in your trading business.

We generally appeal to those who would like better access, more capital useage, than they would have with PDT. I understand that many younger people may not have that saved up yet, and that they probably should not get involved in a new business, whatever kind.

The older model of paying people to risk the firm's money is still alive in Chicago, according to my friend Mr. Maverick. And, some firm types will accept the lower amount of initial capital. Please feel free to start there, come here when your confidence and capital increases.

Mr. Evotrader2 (did I get that right, sorry if I missed a letter or two, LOL)... can you add a bit more here. I think you understand what I'm saying here. Always appreciate some help.....


Don

 

[Maverick74]

Quote from Maverick74:

I'll take the other side of this trade. I say nobody is making 250k a year net at Bright on only 20k. That's my trade. It's a binary no touch option. Let's see how this trade pans out. Small size.

Don, my broker is not sure if this option hit or not. Kind of ambiguous language there. Did you have any traders make 250k net last year with only 20k or 25k on deposit? I was really hoping to start of my week with a winner on this trade.

 

[Don Bright]

Quote from Maverick74:

Don, my broker is not sure if this option hit or not. Kind of ambiguous language there. Did you have any traders make 250k net last year with only 20k or 25k on deposit? I was really hoping to start of my week with a winner on this trade.

You know very well that my traders who make good money have already taken out their "deposit" a long time ago. And, most keep accumulating money in their accounts to save on haircut etc. But, yes, many started with $25k, maybe years ago. Their account balance size is up to them.

Several of my very top earners didn't even take money out last year, no need to.

But, at the same time, some top guys take all their profits out each week, keep their accounts at $20k or so.

It's all up to the individual....the great thing about being an independent trader, the choices are yours.

Don

 

[Maverick74]

Quote from Don Bright:

You know very well that my traders who make good money have already taken out their "deposit" a long time ago. And, most keep accumulating money in their accounts to save on haircut etc. But, yes, many started with $25k, maybe years ago. Their account balance size is up to them.

Several of my very top earners didn't even take money out last year, no need to.

But, at the same time, some top guys take all their profits out each week, keep their accounts at $20k or so.

It's all up to the individual....the great thing about being an independent trader, the choices are yours.

Don

My broker is giving me one more chance to settle the trade. How about this. Last year, did you have any new traders who came into your firm with 20k that net 250k for 2011? Thank god I put this trade on for small size. I'm really sweating this trade now.

 

[EvOTraderV2]

Quote from Lucias:

Don,

Let me get this straight..

You've been quoted as saying that someone can go to your firm with 25k and make 250k the first year. (You have been quoted because you said that in person to me.)

That's amazing... really amazing

Every 1k gets converted to 10k. 25k*10 = 250k

Okay.. so hmm..

let's say I only have 5k * 10 = 50k.

50k isn't a bad a living. Why don't you accept 5k accounts? Given the size of your edge.. I believe average household income in America is around 55k. Obviously, you wouldn't give someone with 5k millions of your dollars but that's okay as they just want to make 50k to get a starter account.

Look forward to your explanation (and don't say fees, overhead, etc.. remember you do accept 25k accounts so within a year we have 50k so even if fees took 100% of initial capital then that still leaves 25k or a 5x return -- not bad).

It doesn't work that way. In reality, you need the cushion for loses and 5k in the market isn't much of a cushion. Don's strategies are also highly hedged, which you won't have the BP to do with 5k in your account. with 5k you need to stick to really low risk strategies like scalping the market.

I'm pretty sure those making 250k in don's group are pretty experienced. New traders will have a learning curve and you can consider that your "tuition". It's really hard work trading, having a tiny account makes it even harder.

There is a psychological aspect of trading which most experienced traders have dealt with. You need to be able to sustain your account through the down times to make the larger profits during the market your strategy works well in.

Also, with Bright, you're paying for GS clearing and REDI Plus software, which is highly sophisticated and gets you access to real portfolio management, not just order entry systems like you get with CBSX firms. I'm pretty sure Don has a few members who subscribe to bloomberg ($1500/month per terminal or at least thats what one group is paying for it here at WTS and they all share it).

Correct me if I am wrong Don, but doesn't most of your strategies required hedging? with 5k in equity, you'd need some serious leverage to do that, correct?

 

[Lucias]

Quote from EvOTraderV2:


Correct me if I am wrong Don, but doesn't most of your strategies required hedging? with 5k in equity, you'd need some serious leverage to do that, correct?

Evo, you're missing the point. Don told me at a seminar thingy that sure it was possible to bring 25k in and make 250k because he gives you millions of dollars to use not abuse. That's 10x return to risk ratio. So, if you have 5k and use less of Don's capital and his edges you could just as well make 50k.

It appears that Don can't answer sufficiently why he doesn't want to help a trader make 50k per year and make himself more money. The answer to the riddle comes from Don's "friend" Maverick, a blowhard in his own right..

Anyway.. Don, not trying to stress you.. hope you are feeling well. I don't have anything against you personally. I just sometimes don't understand some of the things you claim. Hope your heart and dog are well...

 

[Maverick74]

Quote from Lucias:

Evo, you're missing the point. Don told me at a seminar thingy that sure it was possible to bring 25k in and make 250k because he gives you millions of dollars to use not abuse. That's 10x return to risk ratio. So, if you have 5k and use less of Don's capital but his edges you could just as well make 50k.

It appears that Don can't answer sufficiently why he doesn't want to help a trader make 50k per year and make himself more money.

The answer to the riddle comes from Don's "friend" Maverick, a blowhard, in his own right...

What edge is it that you think Don has? It's sink or swim over there. You have to provide your own edge. Don provides the leverage and the software.

 

[Lucias]

Maverick... that's my point has been that Don claims to give traders floor trader edge.. to me that means co-location, cme rates, edge, etc.. But I don't think that is the reality. Anyway, I heard Don was having a rough time and don't want to stress him.. just trying to interject some reality. I'm sure he's a good broker. This is another thing why does Don put up with you running his edges down?

(Serious Don, hope all is well... sending out good vibes to you )

Quote from Maverick74:

What edge is it that you think Don has? It's sink or swim over there. You have to provide your own edge. Don provides the leverage and the software.