The criminal enterprise known as Medicine

SoesWasBetter said:
Someone , elderly, that I know, just got a battery of ROUTINE tests, NO procedures.

MRI and a sitting stress test .

Total billed to Medicare and Co Insurance, $10,000

All this for something that took a few hours at most.

Not a scam? Really?

Multiply this by millions and you know why insurance costs obscene amounts.

Until there are prosecutions for price fixing and fraud, there will be no end to it.
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Just curious... did you ask how much was charged out of pocket?
 
you can't seriously be representing that WHO rankings indicate that that health care results are better almost everywhere else.

have you traveled?
do you believe subjective rankings based on a host of factors is truly indicative of results?

why ruin your observations by bringing in leftist propaganda and solutions.
why not just say our health care results are generally excellent and world leading in many areas but it is really expensive because our politicians are owned by Wall Street and its insurance companies and therefore proper reform is very unlikely.

even futurecurents highlighted a big part of the problem.

our politicians are not deaf and dumb about price elasticity they are corrupt and paid for.

when there was talk of drug prices being bargained for collectively they drug companies got bush and republicans to pass a law that made sure they got paid in full at full prices.

when it was time to perhaps get govt payer or even single payer the insurance companies got Obama Pelosi and Reid to get all the other democrats on board to screw every tax payer in the country even democrats. When half the democrat senators lost their seats..... those same insurance companies and wall street seem to be able to get Ryan and McConnell to prevent trump even something as simple as repeal of obamacare even though it drove up premiums to crazy levels.


piezoe said:
In all other industrialize nations there is a third party payer, just as in the U.S.; yet costs are half as high, or less. Therefore I believe your observation goes only partway to explain the extraordinary cost of medical care in the U.S. And although your observation re plastic surgery and Lasik would seem to support your argument, the presence or absence of a third party payer can not be the primary difference because, as I have pointed out, there is a third party payer in all other countries; yet costs of both regular medical care and optional procedures are much lower elsewhere.

Of course there are multiple factors at play. In the U.S. for example, regulatory capture is significant. There is one factor behind much of medical pricing, however, that regardless of country, if allowed to, will dominate all the other factors affecting price. And this is the inherent inelasticity of pricing for many medical procedures. That is to say, the buyer is not free to walk, so there can't be a two way market.

Whereas many U.S. politicians play deaf and dumb when it comes to recognizing inelasticity in medical pricing, this is not so in other countries. All other industrialized nations except the U.S. have solved the inelasticity problem by giving the government monopoly power to dictate prices. As a result, all other countries have drastically lower medical costs ; yet results are much better everywhere else.* Obviously you, in general, get far less than you pay for in the U.S.!!!

In the case of plastic surgery and lasik you are observing what happens when there is a two-way market.

____________________
*Check out the WHO rankings if you question this.
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jem said:
you can't seriously be representing that WHO rankings indicate that that health care results are better almost everywhere else.

have you traveled?
do you believe subjective rankings based on a host of factors is truly indicative of results?

why ruin your observations by bringing in leftist propaganda and solutions.
why not just say our health care results are generally excellent and world leading in many areas but it is really expensive because our politicians are owned by Wall Street and its insurance companies and therefore proper reform is very unlikely.
More...
I have traveled widely as a matter of fact. And I experienced first hand healthcare in Brazil. Although strictly anecdotal, my experience there was wonderful, and even more so if I compare it to what I would have had to go through in the U.S. under similar circumstances. Three cheers for the Brazilian healthcare system!!! . And of course I trust the WHO rankings. They are based on both purely objective and somewhat subjective criteria. Correct me if I'm way off, but the last time I looked it seems the U.S. was ranked somewhere down around 38th.

Of course the WHO rankings could be "fake". :D
 
jem said:
you can't seriously be representing that WHO rankings indicate that that health care results are better almost everywhere else.

have you traveled?
do you believe subjective rankings based on a host of factors is truly indicative of results?

why ruin your observations by bringing in leftist propaganda and solutions.
why not just say our health care results are generally excellent and world leading in many areas but it is really expensive because our politicians are owned by Wall Street and its insurance companies and therefore proper reform is very unlikely.

even futurecurents highlighted a big part of the problem.

our politicians are not deaf and dumb about price elasticity they are corrupt and paid for.

when there was talk of drug prices being bargained for collectively they drug companies got bush and republicans to pass a law that made sure they got paid in full at full prices.

when it was time to perhaps get govt payer or even single payer the insurance companies got Obama Pelosi and Reid to get all the other democrats on board to screw every tax payer in the country even democrats. When half the democrat senators lost their seats..... those same insurance companies and wall street seem to be able to get Ryan and McConnell to prevent trump even something as simple as repeal of obamacare even though it drove up premiums to crazy levels.
More...
Here you go jem. Courtesy Numbeo, whatever that is. I see we are doing better. All the way up to 35th, just three places below India.
Health Care Index for Country 2017





Click to see this on a map:
More information about these indices
Select date:
Select Region: Africa America Asia Europe Oceania
Search:

Rank
Country
Health Care Index
Health Care
Exp. Index
1 South Korea 83.20 152.14
2 Netherlands 82.50 151.34
3 Taiwan 81.14 148.12
4 Austria 80.91 148.90
5 Thailand 80.66 147.46
6 Sri Lanka 80.04 146.12
7 Belgium 78.92 144.43
8 Japan 78.63 143.27
9 France 78.62 144.00
10 Germany 76.74 140.31
11 Spain 76.65 141.24
12 Malta 76.18 139.03
13 Denmark 75.45 139.21
14 Finland 74.85 136.08
15 Israel 74.78 136.91
16 United Kingdom 74.28 135.95
17 Australia 74.25 135.08
18 Norway 74.19 135.78
19 Czech Republic 74.09 136.05
20 Argentina 73.30 133.68
21 Jordan 71.92 131.35
22 Turkey 71.68 129.20
23 Estonia 71.30 130.71
24 Switzerland 71.04 133.06
25 Sweden 70.64 129.58
26 New Zealand 70.58 127.90
27 Portugal 70.31 127.45
28 Mexico 70.11 125.70
29 Singapore 69.87 129.40
30 Ecuador 69.24 124.87
31 Canada 69.23 127.13
32 India 69.18 124.52
33 Philippines 69.16 124.10
34 Lithuania 68.74 123.71
35 United States 68.22 125.94
36 Hong Kong 67.99 124.21
37 Uruguay 67.11 120.67
38 Italy 66.31 120.46
39 Qatar 66.14 119.54
40 Malaysia 65.99 118.63
41 Colombia 65.79 117.82
42 Tunisia 65.73 117.37
43 Iceland 65.64 119.12
44 Croatia 65.49 121.03
45 Indonesia 64.80 115.88
46 Slovenia 64.35 117.51
47 Lebanon 64.28 118.54
48 Macedonia 63.46 113.28
49 Slovakia 62.63 113.35
50 China 62.25 111.03
51 South Africa 61.72 110.65
52 Bosnia And Herzegovina 61.49 110.37
53 Poland 61.46 110.68
54 Chile 60.97 109.82
55 United Arab Emirates 60.49 111.23
56 Saudi Arabia 60.41 108.26
57 Costa Rica 60.19 107.67
58 Pakistan 59.05 104.36
59 Peru 58.46 104.83
60 Kuwait 57.60 105.95
61 Russia 56.40 99.19
62 Puerto Rico 56.28 103.88
63 Cyprus 54.23 94.54
64 Bulgaria 54.03 96.67
65 Greece 53.92 94.91
66 Serbia 53.86 97.42
67 Belarus 53.76 94.69
68 Hungary 53.46 95.40
69 Ireland 53.33 96.26
70 Romania 53.11 93.55
71 Nigeria 52.33 91.41
72 Brazil 51.70 91.48
73 Iran 51.55 91.37
74 Ukraine 49.81 86.74
75 Vietnam 47.87 81.70
76 Iraq 45.92 79.04
77 Morocco 44.50 75.42
78 Egypt 43.73 75.36
79 Bangladesh 43.49 75.19
80 Venezuela 36.90 63.47
Showing 1 to 80 of 80 entries
 
Here is the WHO ranking. At least we made it above india in this one.

World Health Organization’s Ranking of the World’s Health Systems
January 15, 2017 manuelcosta2561 Comment
Manostaxx

The text that follows is owned by the site above referred.

Here is only a small part of the article, for more please follow the link

SOURCE: http://thepatientfactor.com/canadia...zations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/



Some people fancy all health care debates to be a case of Canadian Health Care vs. American. Not so. According to the World Health Organization’s ranking of the world’s health systems, neither Canada nor the USA ranks in the top 25.



World Health Organization Ranking; The World’s Health Systems
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 USA
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland
51 Dominican Republic
52 Tunisia
53 Jamaica
54 Venezuela
55 Albania
56 Seychelles
57 Paraguay
58 South Korea
59 Senegal
60 Philippines
61 Mexico
62 Slovakia
63 Egypt
64 Kazakhstan 65 Uruguay
66 Hungary
67 Trinidad and Tobago
68 Saint Lucia
69 Belize
70 Turkey
71 Nicaragua
72 Belarus
73 Lithuania
74 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
75 Argentina
76 Sri Lanka
77 Estonia
78 Guatemala
79 Ukraine
80 Solomon Islands
81 Algeria
82 Palau
83 Jordan
84 Mauritius
85 Grenada
86 Antigua and Barbuda
87 Libya
88 Bangladesh
89 Macedonia
90 Bosnia-Herzegovina
91 Lebanon
92 Indonesia
93 Iran
94 Bahamas
95 Panama
96 Fiji
97 Benin
98 Nauru
99 Romania
100 Saint Kitts and Nevis
101 Moldova
102 Bulgaria
103 Iraq
104 Armenia
105 Latvia
106 Yugoslavia
107 Cook Islands
108 Syria
109 Azerbaijan
110 Suriname
111 Ecuador
112 India
113 Cape Verde
114 Georgia
115 El Salvador
116 Tonga
117 Uzbekistan
118 Comoros
119 Samoa
120 Yemen
121 Niue
122 Pakistan
123 Micronesia
124 Bhutan
125 Brazil
126 Bolivia
127 Vanuatu 128 Guyana
129 Peru
130 Russia
131 Honduras
132 Burkina Faso
133 Sao Tome and Principe
134 Sudan
135 Ghana
136 Tuvalu
137 Ivory Coast
138 Haiti
139 Gabon
140 Kenya
141 Marshall Islands
142 Kiribati
143 Burundi
144 China
145 Mongolia
146 Gambia
147 Maldives
148 Papua New Guinea
149 Uganda
150 Nepal
151 Kyrgystan
152 Togo
153 Turkmenistan
154 Tajikistan
155 Zimbabwe
156 Tanzania
157 Djibouti
158 Eritrea
159 Madagascar
160 Vietnam
161 Guinea
162 Mauritania
163 Mali
164 Cameroon
165 Laos
166 Congo
167 North Korea
168 Namibia
169 Botswana
170 Niger
171 Equatorial Guinea
172 Rwanda
173 Afghanistan
174 Cambodia
175 South Africa
176 Guinea-Bissau
177 Swaziland
178 Chad
179 Somalia
180 Ethiopia
181 Angola
182 Zambia
183 Lesotho
184 Mozambique
185 Malawi
186 Liberia
187 Nigeria
188 Democratic Republic of the Congo
189 Central African Republic
190 Myanmar
Source: World Health Organization
 
I will tell you why those studies can be very misleading...

lets talk about infant mortality.
many countries don't try and save babies unless they reach a certain birth weight. Many premies therefore die. those deaths don't hurt their countries rankings.

Whereas here in the states we have children's hospitals with doctors, drugs and machines that can save babies as early as 23 and 24 weeks. These doctors and drugs which can make lungs mature faster and ecmo machines are amazing and they are really expensive and they can save babies that other countries let die. Now some of these babies don't have great results.. some die as young children.... Those deaths harm the rankings of American health care.

However couples from all of the world bring their at risk pregnancies here to our hospitals because our doctors drugs and tech are the best in the world.

I can give you examples from a wide range of medical fields just like the one above.
In terms of ability to save lives our doctors drugs and tech are almost always the top.

Its only when studies give weight to other categories such as cost that our health care system starts to falter, but in terms of results... If I had a serious condition I that needed surgery or advanced practice and care I would rather be in a hospital in a major city here in america than just about anywhere in the world. And on average so would most of the people in the world who have the money to have a choice.
 
jem said:
piezoe are you related to Brazillian politicians?
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no, but I like Brazil and Brazilians. In Salvador I went into a liquor store and there was a bunch of people standing around drinking the liquor. I found out you could taste the liquor before you bought it to make sure you liked it. Very hospitable, I thought. Liquor is very inexpensive in Brazil. Even imported European brands are cheap there. I'll be leaving for Quebec in a few weeks. I love Canada! I like every country I've visited so far except central Arkansas.
 
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