The case against college.

[Big Money]

I just don’t get it about what is so popular about these types of threads and the thinking (or more appropriately the lack of thinking) that goes into them. A few have summed it up quite well (like l2tradr) but it is really simple. The evidence is irrefutable. On average, a person with a college education makes significantly more money and has more opportunities than someone who doesn’t. Why is reality so hard to accept for so many?

Am I saying it is absolutely necessary? No. Am I saying you have to go to college? No. I wish you all the success in the world if you don’t go to college (or do). If you think you can be the exception instead of the rule, have at it. But on average, the statistics say (as they do in trading) you won’t be one of them. So if you want to role the dice and think you can beat the statistics that you will make it in trading and also beat the statistics by not going to college thinking you are better off, that is your choice. Just don’t complain about the “man keeping you down” if you don’t reach your goals and take responsibility. But to allude to the fact how it is actually a good choice and the right one for the majority, is tomfoolery. As much time as some put into defending this fallacy and other nonsense, they could be half way to a degree and IMHO, much better off.

Is it any wonder so many fail in this business or any business? If you can’t accept the facts of life, IMHO that doesn’t bode well to your future success in trading or in your soon to be chosen for you profession (or McDonalds). Why does it matter? Because if you can’t accept something as simple and concrete as this thread premise, it makes me wonder what other facts you will also not believe, also to your own detriment. That following my trading rules is ok. That I don’t have to take this loss and it will come back (before you go broke). That I am right and the market is wrong. And so on. I think you get the point.

Good trading and Happy New Year. With any luck, we won’t see another thread like this for another year.

BM

 

[TraderZones]

Quote from Big Money:

I just don’t get it about what is so popular about these types of threads and the thinking (or more appropriately the lack of thinking) that goes into them. A few have summed it up quite well (like l2tradr) but it is really simple. The evidence is irrefutable. On average, a person with a college education makes significantly more money and has more opportunities than someone who doesn’t. Why is reality so hard to accept for so many?

Am I saying it is absolutely necessary? No. Am I saying you have to go to college? No. I wish you all the success in the world if you don’t go to college (or do). If you think you can be the exception instead of the rule, have at it. But on average, the statistics say (as they do in trading) you won’t be one of them. So if you want to role the dice and think you can beat the statistics that you will make it in trading and also beat the statistics by not going to college thinking you are better off, that is your choice. Just don’t complain about the “man keeping you down” if you don’t reach your goals and take responsibility. But to allude to the fact how it is actually a good choice and the right one for the majority, is tomfoolery. As much time as some put into defending this fallacy and other nonsense, they could be half way to a degree and IMHO, much better off.

Is it any wonder so many fail in this business or any business? If you can’t accept the facts of life, IMHO that doesn’t bode well to your future success in trading or in your soon to be chosen for you profession (or McDonalds). Why does it matter? Because if you can’t accept something as simple and concrete as this thread premise, it makes me wonder what other facts you will also not believe, also to your own detriment. That following my trading rules is ok. That I don’t have to take this loss and it will come back (before you go broke). That I am right and the market is wrong. And so on. I think you get the point.

Good trading and Happy New Year. With any luck, we won’t see another thread like this for another year.

BM

Besides earning a lot more money, reasonably motivated, educated people have an education. Education is basically the opposite of ignorance. College is not only about earning $$$. It is about knowledge, problem-solving, analytical, research, writing and a whole lot of other mental acumens.

The responses above such as "I have a friend with no college but make a lot of money", is an example of statistically ignorant thinking.

 

[Smart Money]

Quote from TraderZones:

Besides earning a lot more money, reasonably motivated, educated people have an education. Education is basically the opposite of ignorance. College is not only about earning $$$. It is about knowledge, problem-solving, analytical, research, writing and a whole lot of other mental acumens.

The responses above such as "I have a friend with no college but make a lot of money", is an example of statistically ignorant thinking.

I have a couple of degrees, but I'd like to share this concept. I have to wonder if the correlation to college and $$$ is mostly just coincidental (not cause and effect). For example, I was highly motivated to make $$$, so I went to college. But had I not gone to college, I was still highly motivated to make $$$ and may have found another way to make it.

Another example...MBA programs. Many of the top tier MBA programs stay in the top tier because they only select the best of the best. But so many of those students are so brilliant that they'd probably pull in lots of cash no matter where they went (motivaiton and brains). I've heard so many people say that they didn't learn much in their MBA program that they can use. I learned a few things, but nothing I couldn't have picked up on my own. So my question is this...if you took the kids that *could* qualify for the best MBA schools and gave them on the job training in management, might they have turned out the same? By day, I'm an engineer...and I really feel (for example) that the things that I do day to day are not so complex that I couldn't have done them out of high school with on the job training.

So my question is really this...are we so sure that it is the college education that allows these people to live longer and make more money, or is it just the caliber of people attending these institutions?...the types of people attracted to these institutions to get ahead?...to do what is hard so they can make more out of their life?

I suspect that if I had not gone to college, and followed a trade such as an auto repairman, or an electrician, or maybe even a plumber, that I would be just as successful as I am now in my current profession for the reason that I would have worked hard to get ahead, opened my own business, developed a reputation, etc.

SM

 

[LeeD]

Quote from Smart Money:

I have a couple of degrees, but I'd like to share this concept. I have to wonder if the correlation to college and $$$ is mostly just coincidental (not cause and effect). For example, I was highly motivated to make $$$, so I went to college. But had I not gone to college, I was still highly motivated to make $$$ and may have found another way to make it.

Even if you haven't made enough money on the colledge degree alone you likely met a few other motivated people who shaped your future goals. People you meat are of vital importance.

Quote from Smart Money:

MBA programs. Many of the top tier MBA programs stay in the top tier because they only select the best of the best. But so many of those students are so brilliant that they'd probably pull in lots of cash no matter where they went (motivaiton and brains). I've heard so many people say that they didn't learn much in their MBA program that they can use. I learned a few things, but nothing I couldn't have picked up on my own. So my question is this...if you took the kids that *could* qualify for the best MBA schools and gave them on the job training in management, might they have turned out the same?

MBA explains to students what happened to companes that were in very different situations than what MBA graduates encounter during the course of their carreirs.

However, being accepted to a top university (whether MBA program or not) and being able to finish it is considered a serious asset by many employers. IN other words, eplayers prefer to rely on recognised benchmarks as opposed to inventing their own.

Quote from Smart Money:

I suspect that if I had not gone to college, and followed a trade such as an auto repairman, or an electrician, or maybe even a plumber, that I would be just as successful as I am now in my current profession for the reason that I would have worked hard to get ahead, opened my own business, developed a reputation, etc.

There are professions that have historically done very well... like plumbers approaching the earning range of dentists... or investments in waste dump sites providing better return than colledge education. You have a good foresite regarding the future value of professions or property... but then youy can just invest and skip all the laborious parts.

 

[slacker]

Quote from Smart Money:

So my question is really this...are we so sure that it is the college education that allows these people to live longer and make more money, or is it just the caliber of people attending these institutions?...the types of people attracted to these institutions to get ahead?...to do what is hard so they can make more out of their life?

SM

Excellent points SM. Degrees, in this society, are a distinguishing trait of a highly motivated individual who is well socialized and capable of dealing with the day to day bullshit within society.

Are degrees necessary for trading? Nope, not at all. No more than being well funded, stable attitude, discipline, support team, etc., etc., You can find examples of traders who have succeeded without degrees, large account, nice home life. However, the more positive the starting point the more sure the destination.

Also, this thread confuses 'education' with 'credentials' which are very different. An education you can get via the web more than ever and nothing can stop anyone from getting a great education. However, the credentials, to be helpful, must be limited and a degree provide that filter.

In a competitive job market the demand is for those who have demonstrated both an 'education' and have some sort of 'credential' B.A. or B.S. degree at least. If all you want to do is trade you need neither an education or credential.

 

[TraderZones]

Quote from Smart Money:

I have to wonder if the correlation to college and $$$ is mostly just coincidental (not cause and effect)

Go onto a major job board (like Careerbuilders.com). See how many decent jobs are available to people without degrees. Or for that matter, without experience. And if you are inexperienced, you better try to crack into the good companies through your college.

For every high paid union worker with a HS diploma, there are a lot of people working as a cashier or other menial job. In fact, even the factory (now highly automated) and other jobs are going to people with a good education. And plumbers and electricians. They want math skills, problem-solving skills, communication skills, etc.

Not only is the money for college degrees much higher, but several have posted in other threads noncollege folks have an unemployment rate historically about twice as high, as well.

In a bad economy, there have been multiple news articles that employers now are happy they can hire more qualified people. They are not talking about a High school grad at McD's, they are talking about education, certifications, experience, knowledge workers, etc.

There is no such thing as coincidence on a 40+ year, 100+ million worker scale.

 

[Eddiefl]

Quote from KINGOFSHORTS:

The message is familiar. Colleges are youth ghettos. They promise more than they deliver. They serve as great social sorting machines and not as institutions of higher learning. Their students are pressured to attend by parents or peers and do not know what else to do. Their diplomas cost more—and are worth less—than ever before.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,917344,00.html#ixzz0ZhblHsSr

Yes, the case against colleg, yes the case is a bad one. Proof, that is higher education pays you more is everywhere.

Case Closed, move on.

EF

 

[loza]

You forget the original reason to go to college - learning what you are interested in and forging discipline to do papers and assignments that you will need in when you finished and in the workplace. The main benefit for a college education that the, pupil hopefully will not remain ignorant and college will open new doors for him.
Having said this, the best bang for the buck is 2-year decent community college and transfer to the state university to get a degree.

Quote from KINGOFSHORTS:

The message is familiar. Colleges are youth ghettos. They promise more than they deliver. They serve as great social sorting machines and not as institutions of higher learning. Their students are pressured to attend by parents or peers and do not know what else to do. Their diplomas cost more—and are worth less—than ever before.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,917344,00.html#ixzz0ZhblHsSr

 

[Lethn]

How exactly is going to a college and learning on your own any different from learning on your own without going to college?

There's bugger all difference, unless you have teachers who are actually willing to teach and provide you with genuine worthwhile experience you may as well sit and twiddle your damn thumbs the whole damn time your at those stupid lessons where you don't learn anything or you go and learn what the teachers are supposed to be teaching you like I did.

I think the answer is simple, if you are not a vocational college then do NOT teach non-vocational based subjects, if you are not a theory based college then do not teach non-theory based subjects. If the government is going to bloody provide education then it should be providing fucking both you can't just fucking pick and choose with a persons livelyhood just because you can write laws.

These twats going around saying you only get what you put in out of it and that the education system isn't supposed to be teaching vocational skill based courses are just making up retarded excuses because they can't do any fucking better.

>_< This makes me fucking mad so I think I'm going to stop posting in this thread now because the stupidity and rabid defense of government education is ridiculous.

 

[wolfab82]

What I don't understand is, if College degrees are the greatest thing since sliced bread, why did none of the eggheads foresee any of the problems in 05/06 up until now? (with the exception of Nouriel).


College is a business model that will quickly fail with the growing expansion of globalism, technology and access to information.


Another question, how is it that a decent human being with supposed common sense can pay someone 30 k a year to READ OUT OF A BOOK TO THEM!!?

When was the last time a Professor explained anything relative to real life?

I fell hard for the brainwashing and regret and will continue to regret it my whole life.

The only thing college will guarantee is a waste of time, debt and delays into becoming a master of your own destiny.

However, it is important to keep college alive and well, it makes it easier to pick the fools apart from the wise.

How will you ever be a BOSS if you are so preoccupied with others opinions and styles of thought?

How will you ever learn to manage money or run a business if you need to be read to and cant learn on your own?

Alas, the world will always need bootmakers for kings and employees, therefore we have college instead of more exam backed licenses etc.