If he showed me he could meet the combine's strict requirement then I would have no problem telling him to risk 5k on a futures account using a 2% daily stop loss trading 1 contract to cut his teeth with real money. At then end of the day sim means nothing, what separates the winners from the losers is can you pull the trigger consistently and unemotionally like a robot with real money on the line day in and day out.
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The bitter truth about Patak Trading
- Thread starter gmst
- Start date
If he showed me he could meet the combine's strict requirement then I would have no problem telling him to risk 5k on a futures account using a 2% daily stop loss trading 1 contract to cut his teeth with real money. At then end of the day sim means nothing, what separates the winners from the losers is can you pull the trigger consistently and unemotionally like a robot with real money on the line day in and day out.
Quote from Maverick74:
Do you have any fucking clue what you are up against in the Chicago HFT community. These firms that hire and back traders run algos that make money 240 out of 250 days a year. These firms measure their down days in basis points. If you are going to knock on their door and try to convince them to allocate some of their money away from their algos to a point and click discretionary trader who loses 2% of his nut twice a month on a regular basis daytrading, you are nuts.
I'm not saying you can't trade your own account that way. I'm saying that no prop firm is going to return your phone call. That is a fact!
Speaking of hft, it is very easy with t4 to copy any other traders who are profitable with size that have became a slave to your firm for 1 year. Not saying this is going on but it is very possible
Quote from Maverick74:
OK, I know I'm going to get attacked here. This might sound harsh, but dude, if you are losing that kind of money, no one is ever going to back you. And I don't mean "you" personally. I'm not try to make this about you. But that guy you are describing is not going to get backed. This is what I was talking about earlier about becoming consistent. Look, trading is very hard. I think all of us can find common ground there. The fact of the matter is, most guys here will never get hired by a prop firm, never get 100% backed and probably never be even profitable trading their own account. That is the sad reality.
Here's the deal. Trading is very very very easy provided you never have to use stops. Provided you never have to control losses. Provided you never have to exit losing positions. Anyone can trade under those conditions. What makes trading actually difficult is having to honor stops, controlling losses and getting out of bad positions. If you are losing 2% of your account on a regular basis daytrading the math will NEVER work for you. Not you personally, but whoever. It just won't work. Please don't lecture me on profit factors and all that stuff. I've heard the sales pitch far too many times by guys at my old firm trying to get backed.
I could not agree more. 2% daily loss tolerance is too high imo and is not needed to work a proper edge. My max risk on a daily basis is 1/2% and this holds my position size down but that is OK by me.
Listen to Maverick people, he knows what he's talking about. We, at Bright, have very profitable traders, but they have enough personal funding, along with our money, to use to engage in strategies that CAN work. It's still very tough, even with all the advantages offered.
I spent a long time on the phone with a couple of good friends at the CME and CBOE last week. No one is really "hiring" anyone these days. Sure, the risk takers, by which I mean those willing to start a business venture with some of their own money, have a fighting chance.....but those looking for a free ride, just won't find it these days.
We have gone kind of "back to the future" it seems. Sure, our algo guys are updating their stuff and doing well, but I see re-emergence of the basic, buy and sell trader. I hate to use myself as an example, but even with low, real low, VIX, I seem to manage to keep one of my accounts profitable each week. Nothing big, not my major trading stuff, nothing like my brother, but my "grandkids" account, 500-1000 share stuff, trading a couple of pairs manually, doing the opens, and trading in and out of GE and SPY.
Sure, we have to use our indicators, basic stuff, but I've been doing ok....haven't had a losing week for quite a while. Not a big deal.
'
I guess what I'm trying to say is listen to Mav, get some capital together, don't try getting into a $100k poker game with $2K. Adequately capitalize yourself, and you have a chance. This may sound like a BT commercial to some, but I don't care where you trade, you need to know what your plan is, and you need adequate capital, yours and your Firms.
All the best,
Don
I spent a long time on the phone with a couple of good friends at the CME and CBOE last week. No one is really "hiring" anyone these days. Sure, the risk takers, by which I mean those willing to start a business venture with some of their own money, have a fighting chance.....but those looking for a free ride, just won't find it these days.
We have gone kind of "back to the future" it seems. Sure, our algo guys are updating their stuff and doing well, but I see re-emergence of the basic, buy and sell trader. I hate to use myself as an example, but even with low, real low, VIX, I seem to manage to keep one of my accounts profitable each week. Nothing big, not my major trading stuff, nothing like my brother, but my "grandkids" account, 500-1000 share stuff, trading a couple of pairs manually, doing the opens, and trading in and out of GE and SPY.
Sure, we have to use our indicators, basic stuff, but I've been doing ok....haven't had a losing week for quite a while. Not a big deal.
'
I guess what I'm trying to say is listen to Mav, get some capital together, don't try getting into a $100k poker game with $2K. Adequately capitalize yourself, and you have a chance. This may sound like a BT commercial to some, but I don't care where you trade, you need to know what your plan is, and you need adequate capital, yours and your Firms.
All the best,
Don
Quote from volente_00:
If he showed me he could meet the combine's strict requirement then I would have no problem telling him to risk 5k on a futures account using a 2% daily stop loss trading 1 contract to cut his teeth with real money. At then end of the day sim means nothing, what separates the winners from the losers is can you pull the trigger consistently and unemotionally like a robot with real money on the line day in and day out.
Here's the problem. YOU won't back him with your capital. You are simply telling him that HE should risk HIS money. No shit Sherlock. People can do whatever they want with their money. I have stated that 100 times. I'm saying you won't back him and that is what this all comes down to. Ask another human being to accept YOUR risk. Good luck with that.
Quote from gmst:
My impression was that when you say you are not going to be backed, you were referring that Patak and similar shops will not back with that kind of DD.
If you suddenly started comparison with Getco and Citadel of the world, ofcourse they won't back with 2% daily DD. I know that. But please don't mix HFTs here, all the perf. numbers etc. we are talking about here are about Patak and company.
So, now can you make a more 'adult' and 'mature' response to my numbers where I showed that a 1500$ day would be outlier for a trader at Patak and not 500$ day. We were discussing trailing stops at Patak.
Who said anything about Citadel or Getco? We are talking futures prop firms here right? So let's name some. Jump, Chopper, Breakwater, TMG, Infinium, etc. There really are no other firms like TST so we have to compare them to other alternatives with are futures prop firms in the Chicago area. These firms are simply not going to be interested in a point and click discretionary trader who 24 times a year is going to lose 200 basis pts in a single day. I'm sorry, that is the truth.
No where I am saying one can't make that work on their own, provided like Don said, they are adequately capitalized. That in my opinion is a lot more then 2k. I think one needs at least 50k to 100k to at least begin having a conversation. And please don't tell me about intra-day $500 margins.
Quote from Maverick74:
Here's the problem. YOU won't back him with your capital. You are simply telling him that HE should risk HIS money. No shit Sherlock. People can do whatever they want with their money. I have stated that 100 times. I'm saying you won't back him and that is what this all comes down to. Ask another human being to accept YOUR risk. Good luck with that.
You got it Mav.... too many people these days expect someone else to take the risk for them. What do they call that? Entitlement generation?
Sure, we have a shared risk, but it's funny how when I ask someone to back me to play blackjack (with my proven track record), they are reluctant, but want someone to back them trading, LOL.
Hope things are going good with you my friend,
Don
Quote from Don Bright:
You got it Mav.... too many people these days expect someone else to take the risk for them. What do they call that? Entitlement generation?
Sure, we have a shared risk, but it's funny how when I ask someone to back me to play blackjack (with my proven track record), they are reluctant, but want someone to back them trading, LOL.
Hope things are going good with you my friend,
Don
Entitlement generation is right. There are people on this board who think being backed is a constitutional right. It's all so easy to make money trading yet all these guys have their hand out asking for money. It drives me nuts. Of course all you have to do is flip everything around and see if THEY would actually back anyone. Then they get quiet. LOL.
Quote from Maverick74:
No where I am saying one can't make that work on their own, provided like Don said, they are adequately capitalized. That in my opinion is a lot more then 2k. I think one needs at least 50k to 100k to at least begin having a conversation. And please don't tell me about intra-day $500 margins.
What Don thinks or what you think is not the topic of discussion on this thread. We were discussing Patak here. Matter at hand is their max 50% trailing stop loss kicking in at 500$ open profit.
You mentioned that 500$ profit on one day is an outlier. So, you reasoned as soon as a trader goes about 500$ in open profits, the right course of action is to secure his profits by putting trail.
I put forward logic and an associated example to prove that 500$ day profit is not an outlier. An outlier would be around 1500$ day profit or so. So, a trail should be required by Patak only after a minimum open profit of 1000$ to 1500$ and it makes no sense to have a trail kicking in at 500$. Only logical explanation is that Patak wants to encourage scalping and wants their live traders to fail.
Can you please respond on this trailing stop point please? Rather than talking about how hard trading is and how hard it is to get backed or why would Patak want its live traders to fail!
Thanks for staying on point.
Quote from gmst:
What Don thinks or what you think is not the topic of discussion on this thread. We were discussing Patak here. Matter at hand is their max 50% trailing stop loss kicking in at 500$.
You mentioned that 500$ profit on one day is an outlier. So, you reasoned as soon as a trader goes about 500$ in open profits, the right course of action is to secure his profits by putting trail.
I put forward logic and an associated example to prove that 500$ day profit is not an outlier. An outlier would be around 1500$ day profit or so. So, a trail should be required by Patak only after a minimum open profit of 1000$ to 1500$ and it makes no sense to have a trail kicking in at 500$. Only logical explanation is that Patak wants to encourage scalping and wants their live traders to fail.
Can you please respond on this trailing stop point please? Rather than talking about how hard trading is and how hard it is to get backed or why would Patak want its live traders to fail!
Thanks for staying on point.
I don't really care what their trailing stop rules are. I'm guessing if you actually were willing to pick up the phone and talk to Michael he would probably waive that for you. I'm just going on your earlier statement that making $250 a day was too tough for you and now you are saying you are going to make $1500 on a good day. Look, at this point, I don't care anymore. I don't want to argue over every little detail about trading with these guys. Their rules are customizable but you gotta pick up the phone and talk to people. I told this guy I was willing to meet him for a beer. I can ask him all these questions in person.
My overall point to this whole debate is when someone else is accepting your risk, you have to play by their rules. It kind of sounds similar to what your dad told you growing up right? My dad told me as I'm sure your dad told you, "if you want to live under my roof, you gotta live by my rules". The door was always open for me to leave. I figured a way to live by his rules.
It's just this constant demand on this website where young guys are demanding people to back them under their conditions or else is just getting tiresome. I just have a fundamental problem with that.