The bitter truth about Patak Trading

[gmst]

Quote from hilojack:

Commissions do matter, but why should Patak pass the savings along to you? It costs money to run a business, and there is nothing wrong with having multiple revenue streams. They have negotiated their deal, provide volume to get it, manage risk, etc. If you are good enough, you can negotiate lower or leave to go elsewhere. But where u gonna go? Chances are you don't have enough to trade yourself which is why you are in the program to begin with.

Why do hedge funds charge management fees in addition to performance fees? Costs, plain and simple. Why does Walmart charge more for cheap Chinese crap? Its called capitalism, and you pay for access. As a ghetto trader, you don't have access. Get it?

As far as my program goes, it is a sideshow to my CTA where I am looking for complimentary traders to my stuff so that I can raise more capital and smooth out returns. I am not a vendor, and you won't ever see me advertise, especially here. So don't PM me later apologizing for acting like a dbag and looking for more info.

Thank you very much for a thoughtful response.

I am saying that TST is misrepresenting, their only interest is to make their 1-3 million per year and keep churning traders. Their main interest is not to have a long term relationship with a profitable trader. Otherwise, they will help the trader by passing on the lowest commission the trader can get.

I am sure you are aware that with ultra-low commissions a lot of scalping strategies become viable. Monroe Trout talks about the importance of ultra-low commissions in Market Wizards. Now, please don't tell me that I should listen to folks on ET over Monroe Trout, if ET guys tell me that higher commissions don't matter.

But way more important point than commissions is their utterly unattainable performance criteria. You should think about their requirements, when those requirements are translated into the required PF, the utter unattainability of the challenge becomes clear. If their true motivation was to partner with successful traders, their performance criteria would be high for sure, but reasonable.

Agree with you - traders whom Patak is targeting don't have access otherwise. They have stars in their eyes and Patak is exploiting this to sell them dreams that will never materialize.

I have no problem if Patak earns 2million or 10 million per year, my problem is that they are misrepresenting. And I am sure if some disgruntled Patak trader lateron takes them to NFA and CFTC, they will be fined.

Don't wait for my PM. I won't PM you asking you to take me as an emerging manager! Rather, I will setup my own CTA and grow much further in life LOL

 

[gmst]

Quote from HurricaneUS:

It seems highly suspect that Mav is going to such great lengths to defend this TST program. I mean aren't you supposed to be working

Also, he has an intricate knowledge of TST's procedures and policies that is unmatched...hhhhmmmmm?

Anyone who reads the other thread "Patak Trading" will be amazed to see the lengths to which Maverick has gone to defend and support TST. The incredible amount of his involvement there raised my suspicion that Maverick is involved with Patak Trading. Even though since then he has claimed that he has no relationship with Patak at all.

 

[xtoronto]

Quote from oraclewizard77:

I agree, anyone would be better off getting a job with the federal government than listen to you, at least 90% would make money instead of the 90% losing money who take your advice.

The truth is, you have done nothing to help anyone but yourself. Live with that. I have not seen a single post from you that even provided good advice to anyone.

Whereas, my post telling people to get a nice job with the government where you can get union wages and retirement is priceless.

This thread is ridiculous, can't believe I read up till this point. Fwiw I find Maverick one of the better posters on this site, too bad he (and everyone else) has to waste time on threads like this. Especially from a moderator.

 

[gmst]

Quote from xtoronto:

This thread is ridiculous, can't believe I read up till this point. Fwiw I find Maverick one of the better posters on this site, too bad he (and everyone else) has to waste time on threads like this. Especially from a moderator.

Maverick - Worshiping just doesn't stop For the last time, this thread is not about Maverick, this thread is about true reason behind Patak's existence.

Just prove my logic and my numbers are wrong. You have read the whole thread. Please concentrate on my first 4 posts and show me where I have erred in my conclusions. That will be useful rather than more Maverick-worshiping!

 

[traderCND]

Yes, he should explain how he has access to a potentially private web link that is not their webpage.

Quote from HurricaneUS:

It seems highly suspect that Mav is going to such great lengths to defend this TST program. I mean aren't you supposed to be working


Also, he has an intricate knowledge of TST's procedures and policies that is unmatched...hhhhmmmmm?

 

[JuniorCTA]

you all sound butt hurt; just give up.. you'll never succeed.

the numbers make sense, it's a business, it's aligned with their best interests in mind, not yours.


go find another shop that will let you trade live for less than $500 deposit

if their rules sound impossible to you, have you considered that just MAYBE, MAYBE your not the kind of trader they are looking for??

Also, this is just retarded, can someone move this shit to chitchat tired of seeing this on the front page

 

[Kevin Schmit]

Quote from gmst:

If average combine price is 300$, that makes net income per month = 300*1000 = 300k

No, it doesn't. That would be gross income, not net income. There are costs involved, like data and platform fees, salary and overheads for support staff, etc. Net income per demo trader would be much lower, probably less than $150 on a $300 combine. And I seriously doubt the average combine is $300. The average trader too broke to fund his own trading account is likely to go for a less expensive combine.

Your analysis of Patak profits on live traders is similarly flawed. Your estimates of gross don't seem too far off, but you underestimate or ignore completely likely costs that offset those gross amounts.

Does Patak hide the fact that it is in business to make profits? If you are a customer of any business, you should be aware that you are the source of that business's profits.

 

[gmst]

Quote from Kevin Schmit:

No, it doesn't. That would be gross income, not net income. There are costs involved, like data and platform fees, salary and overheads for support staff, etc. Net income per demo trader would be much lower, probably less than $150 on a $300 combine. And I seriously doubt the average combine is $300. The average trader too broke to fund his own trading account is likely to go for a less expensive combine.

Your analysis of Patak profits on live traders is similarly flawed. Your estimates of gross don't seem too far off, but you underestimate or ignore completely likely costs that offset those gross amounts.

Does Patak hide the fact that it is in business to make profits? If you are a customer of any business, you should be aware that you are the source of that business's profits.

Really, Thank you very very much for coming up with an intelligent response!

Yes, 300k is gross income, not net income. Of course, I don't know the exact numbers, these are just assumptions that I am making. Lets say even if the average combine is 200$, gross income from combine is 200k. One assumption were I could be really off is the percentage of traders who move from combine to live. I assumed it to be 5%. What if it is 2%? Then since total number of traders in live = 50 (48 to be exact), so total # of traders in combine = 50*50 = 2500. Multiply it by 200$ to get 500k gross income.

The thing is I don't really know the numbers and so I am forced to make some assumptions.

Yes, I have no problems with Patak profitting. After all, we are the best capitalists in the world. My point is Patak and its agents on ET shouldn't promote themselves as an avenue where their main aim is earn money by partnering with great traders. They are fooling people.

As their rules clearly demonstrate, their focus on scalping and extremely unattainable performance measures are designed to keep churning their customers.

Also, it seems to me (not sure) that their fixed costs and variable costs are very low. Seems they have automated everything. Source: http://www.matadortrader.com/2011/05/matadors-100th-post-looking-back-at.html

Again, thanks for a good response.

 

[gmst]

Never thought I will have to divulge it here on ET. But insults are just getting a bit too much for me to digest. FWIW, I am a Wharton MBA.

 

[JuniorCTA]

Quote from gmst:

Really, Thank you very very much for coming up with an intelligent response!

Yes, 300k is gross income, not net income. Of course, I don't know the exact numbers, these are just assumptions that I am making. Lets say even if the average combine is 200$, gross income from combine is 200k. One assumption were I could be really off is the percentage of traders who move from combine to live. I assumed it to be 5%. What if it is 2%? Then since total number of traders in live = 50 (48 to be exact), so total # of traders in combine = 50*50 = 2500. Multiply it by 200$ to get 500k gross income.

The thing is I don't really know the numbers and so I am forced to make some assumptions.

Yes, I have no problems with Patak profitting. After all, we are the best capitalists in the world. My point is Patak and its agents on ET shouldn't promote themselves as an avenue where their main aim is earn money by partnering with great traders. They are fooling people.

As their rules clearly demonstrate, their focus on scalping and extremely unattainable performance measures are designed to keep churning their customers.

Also, it seems to me (not sure) that their fixed costs and variable costs are very low. Seems they have automated everything. Source: http://www.matadortrader.com/2011/05/matadors-100th-post-looking-back-at.html

Again, thanks for a good response.

"Unattainable" is relative. If you don't like the rules of the game, don't play, stop whining. It's actually alot like trading.