The Bill to re-instate the draft now in Congress

Quote from rgelite:

While the argument set out here has many valid historical points, the inherent premise is that the solution is to force others to do what some want for "their own good" and because it has judged them to be "selfish" by its own standards.

The hidden premise is that selfishness is immoral.

But in doing so, it evades the obvious contradiction that its proponents want what they want when they want it and thus, despite all the high-minded rhetoric about service and community values and giving back, it's really driven by their psychological impatience to get things done in their timeframe, in their way, by their methods.

If selfishness is so bad in theory (according to these proponents), then what the heck is worse in practice? Deciding for oneself to study the classics, learn about computers (or trading), play baseball, or otherwise contribute to society by paying taxes? Or, through dint of 51% of the people joining hands in their vision of what they want, condemn the other 49% to do something abhorent to their own lives, but that the 51% see as good in their obvious, dare I say it, self-interest?

The hypocrisy is staggering. The consequences are generationally cyclical and negative. And the results to real people's lives are vicious. Absolutely vicious.

Incredible post! This is the exact message Ayn Rand tried to convey all her life.

Her book "The virtue of selfishness" has truly changed my life. Most notably the chapter on 'compromise' which transformed me into a full blown atheist. It just clicked in my head that mysticism had absolutely nothing to offer me, so why even make gestures like fasting on Yom Kippur? Incredible book.
 
Quote from jasper6:

It'll be a cold day in hell before I let this fascist regime turn my kids into cannon fodder.

Wake up people! Do you really want your American children dying in the sand for the sake of Israel, Oil and Empire?

Maybe that's what bill's sponser is thinking. Except for the Israel part.
 
The current Administration offers no budget regarding the war in Iraq, whatsoever, and obviously ( for political purposes ) is delaying any sort of discussion or budget projections on the War in Iraq till after the November election.

Sen. Chuck Hagel, R-Neb., said he smelled election-year politics.

"The administration would be well served here to come forward now, be honest about this, because the continuity and the confidence in this policy is going to be required to sustain it," Hagel said. "And that means be honest with the Congress, be honest with the American people.

"Every ground squirrel in this country knows that it's going to be $50 billion to $75 billion in additional money required to sustain us in Iraq for this year."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=542&e=5&u=/ap/20040421/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_iraq
 
Quote from jasper6:

It'll be a cold day in hell before I let this fascist regime turn my kids into cannon fodder.

Wake up people! Do you really want your American children dying in the sand for the sake of Israel, Oil and Empire?
War's hell, dude. Better your kids than mine.
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Quote from Cutten:

I thought the US had abolished slavery?

One thing that history has shown is that freedom isn't always free. Asking people to perform their duty for the benefits they reap as citizens of a free society, particularly when their country truly is in danger, is not slavery. The only real question is, does the current situation require such that people be required to do their duty on such a mass scale (as would be the case with a draft). The answer is obviously no, and that is why there won't be a draft.
 
Quote from TigerO:

Here's an idea to combat the despicable personal cowardice prevalent in the administration:

"I move that there be a constitutional amendment that every president, before committing anyone else's sons and daughters to combat or a hostile situation, first pledge his own son and daughter to the war effort.

Regardless of age or occupation, a president's offspring should be pulled from whatever they are doing, sent to basic training, measured for a uniform and shipped out with a combat unit to the front line.

Yes, a tour of duty for the Bush twins.

A war made real, fretful and personal for those in power might make decision-making more thoughtful, reflective and considerate of everyone's life - with a reduced tendency to say, ``Bring 'em on.""

http://elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31562

bush_pilot_button.jpg

In many ways, this would be a great idea. On the flip side, I think it should be noted that making certain decisions like this TOO personal ccould actually backfire by increasing the likelihood that a president wouldn't do what really is necessary (when action actually is necessary).
 
Quote from Burtakus:

Maybe if more people actually served their country in some capacity they would have a better appreciation for what it offers.

Many men and women have died or sacrificed more than most could possibly understand so that people can express themselves on forums such as this. It is a shame that rumors, speculation, and deliberate misinformation by both sides has turned this great country onto itself. Furthermore the complete pacification of the left has weakened this country immeasurably. People laud the Europeans for their restraint. They just didn;t want to lse their oil from Iraq along with the millions of dollars skimmed from the UN food for oil program. so you see that the very people the left looks up too have the same motivations as our government. When will the people of the nation wake up and realize that the world is not a perfect place and in order to ensure our status in the world we sometimes have to act in our cest interests. Tansforming Iraq into a democracy has greater long term benefits for our shildren and grandchildren than can be measured.

People may not like Bush but at least he does what he thinks is right and sticks to his guns. He is not afraid to make the tough decisions that need to be made and is willing to do what it takes to enusre the future prosperity of our nation.

As far as sending our sons and daughters to the service. I think it would be an excellent idea. It would give them a different perspective than the sheltered, idealist, self centered outlook provided by the left.

I agree with much of what you say, although I have mixed feelings about your comments on Bush.

As far as the corrupt UN Oil for Food Program (and corrupt French), this sure was interesting (link below)!

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/040426/opinion/26edit.htm
 
Quote from jasper6:

I'm a Libertarian. I have an equally dim view of Democrats and Republicans. I think one of the worst things in the US is the absolute control of the political process by these two parties.

If all of the energy that is wasted on partisanship was directed toward actually fixing the problems in the US, this would be a lot better country.

I think there are a lot of people like me in America. People who just want to be left alone. People who accept personal responsibility for their own lives and actions. People who want to be free from other people's religion. People who are socially liberal and fiscally conservative. People who don't care what their neighbor is doing down the street as long as they aren't hurting anyone else. People who believe in truth over propaganda. People who believe that the government works for them and not the other way around.



Quote from jasper6:

It'll be a cold day in hell before I let this fascist regime turn my kids into cannon fodder.

Wake up people! Do you really want your American children dying in the sand for the sake of Israel, Oil and Empire?

The top quote was well said, except that I hope you are not claiming to know at all times what the truth is. It certainly is not always what your buddy Chomsky claims it is!

As far as your bottom quote, I think it demonstrates that you certainly take leaps in assuming the truth. As far as this war, claiming it is for empire is pretty ridiculous (we were never going to stay and it is costing us a fortune). Arguing that it is for oil is a stretch since we are (and knew we would be) spending far more on Iraq (and servicing its oil fields, which are in sad shape and are constantly attacked) than we ever might've saved (lot of good its done for the cost of oil), not to mention that oil profits are being used to rebuild their country (and will be in their hands shortly). And lastly, with regard to Israel, Iraq was not much of a threat to Israel. What's more, even many of the countries/intelligence services that opposed the war, like the corrupt French government, believed that Iraq had, at a minimum, chemical and bio weapons. Also, Rumsfeld and Cheney were the most responsible for advocating the war. Was this war a mistake? Perhaps. But was it launched for the reasons you claim as truth? There are plenty of reasons to think not!
 
Quote from I Missed Boat:

One thing that history has shown is that freedom isn't always free. Asking people to perform their duty for the benefits they reap as citizens of a free society, particularly when their country truly is in danger, is not slavery. The only real question is, does the current situation require such that people be required to do their duty on such a mass scale (as would be the case with a draft). The answer is obviously no, and that is why there won't be a draft.

The preservation of a free society isn't always free, that's true. Understanding that, however, is a matter of personal learning, not duty. Those who understand it will fight to live in freedom. Or else, knowing that we all die some day anyway, will die proudly striving to honor the values they hold dear. Those who don't, won't. History is replete with examples. The U.S. is one; Iraq is another.

Again, I agree with the historical and practical aspects of what you and others have written as justification for why YOU would pick up arms and fight. I have no truck with that; I'd be there with you, just so we're clear, if I or any of my interests as I see them were in fact threatened.

It's like the abortion issue. That issue is not about killing babies. The distinction is whether a fetus trumps a woman's sovereign right to decide for her own body. Which in turn, and on principle, determines whether any of us, man or woman, owns our own body or if some church does with 51% of the vote, or if the state does with all its force of arms. As a man, I have no say in the abortion issue as it pertains to women, but total say in how the principle applies to me, even though I would be hard pressed to ask a woman to abort a fetus she and I created. The latter is inconsequential to the discussion; my personal feelings about abortion don't matter. What matters is whether or not, in the name of Freedom, I point a gun at another citizen's head (through the proxies I elect) and tell him or her what to do with his or her life.

Those who don't want to fight in a war, whose values hierarchy reflects something other than what you or I think is important in that particular moment, won't. Some will have other, more important things to take care of in their lives at that moment. A few will be free loaders, there always are; but a greater number, if we're going to cite history, will volunteer willingly, just as many did in WWII and immediately after 9/11. Even in Vietnam there were volunteers in the early '60's before it was clear we weren't there to win anymore. And even after that point, there were still some volunteers!

Finally, some people just will never understand the real threats. But that's the fabric of living in a free society and, if a majority of us begin to fail in that understanding, I personally will look to live elsewhere. Sadly, yes, but necessarily to protect myself and my concerns. That is why the abomination that passes for state run education these days is in itself part of that same threat to freedom. Fortunately, at my age I really don't have to be concerned anymore much past the next 10-20 years, really just one more generation.

Forcing anyone to act against their own better judgment at the point of a gun, even if to guarantee your freedom and theirs, while yelling at them that someone else is pointing a gun at them, is a contradiction on its face and a slap to the American principles on which this country was founded and deserves to continue to exist. It betrays an attitude unwilling to trust one's own fellow citizens to defend what's theirs, and an impatience and impotence with seeing through one's own agenda by means of rational persuasion.

The appropriate name for when a country's citizens force other members of the same society to give up their freedom, their lives, is slavery. No matter how good you or I think our reasons.
 
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