The authors of "The Bible of Technical Analysis" and review of the "Bible".

[Money Trust]

I don't disagree one bit that these posts are started and perpetuated by struggling traders.

But why don't we look at this from a different angle. The struggling trader has very direct proof that whatever he is doing doesn't work. Maybe he doesn't have a good enough grasp of TA, maybe he doesn't have a plan, maybe he doesn't have discipline, but whatever the reason, he has verifiable proof of his struggling via his dwindling account balance.

But how is this struggling trader helped? If ET is meant to be a forum for traders to discuss, why is it that none of the expert traders offer something more tangible? wrbtrader has to dig into the past to find examples of where traders would share something tangible with regards to some sort of consistent demonstration, or he has to to point to sources outside of ET. Why isn't all the crap that MarketSurfer posts met with some type of tangible demonstration?

In my opinion, the experts on here aren't really all that much better than the struggling traders. One complains how nothing works, the other other side blame's the way the struggling trader is looking at it. Or rather, as wrbtrader points out, he says trading can't be taught. For every complaint about how PA doesn't work, there are just as many posts to back up why there is never any demonstration, why any demonstration is useless, why it can't be coded, why it can't be taught, why .... etc.

If your suggestion is to crack down on repetitive threads of this type, my suggestion is to crack down on people who keep praising something they are not willing to back up themselves. Once again, for the record, I'm not discrediting PA... I'm a firm believer, but those who seem to want to back it up offer so very little that they have no compelling argument.

I understand why struggling traders come here to complain, but I don't understand why experienced and profitable traders are only hiding, and complain about all the noise, not realizing that they are for the most part only adding to the noise.

Why should those who have a working method share with people here only to be met with extreme cynicism?

Also, have you considered that what wbtrader described is the reason that traders don't bothering offering anything more tangible? What he describes make plenty of sense. If successful traders have already come to the forums, described some of their methods only to be met with bullshit, I see how others can watch that take place and not wanna go down that same road.

That being said, there's enough information out there (easily accessible, btw) for anyone to come up with a working methodology. The problem is that many people here are lazy and don't wanna put in the time and effort to learn basic principles and come up with a method that works for them. Instead, they're usually looking for a method in a box. They wanna be told not only how to analyze the market, but they also want others to micromanage their trade as well. In other words, they wanna read a trading book and find a system that they can immediately apply without having to tweak anything on their own and it doesn't work like that. I guess that's their way of avoiding responsibility for their fuck ups.

 

[marketsurfer]

surf,

That's what I thought.

Yet, here's the problem...you're debating with some folks that are not automated. You're debating with some folks that are discretionary traders (no automation trading). You're debating with some folks that uses suggestive TA.

Just the same, I've seen you debate with folks that say they use TA and nothing else even though we both know they are using something else (e.g. risk management, discipline, trade experience, fundementals and so on).

Oddly, I don't think I've ever seen you debate with automated traders that use TA. I've also never seen you enter The ACD Method thread of your pal Maverick to challenge their TA. It just seems like if you like the guy and if the guy uses TA...you got his back that he's a profitable trader and you're willing to prove that he's a profitable trader.

I just think that its odd.

By the way, I don't know of any Evidence Base TA users at ET. All the TA users I know here do not use automation or some sort'uv coding trading system. In fact, most of those I see you get into arguments about TA on a consistent bases...they're discretionary traders and they use TA with other stuff.

That's why I believe your TA debates is more personal than it is about TA in reference to how you treat Sykes and Maverick.

Its not personal at all. Unfortunately, for TA true believers, when their methods are tested, they ALWAYS fail to produce meaningful results. See Aronson among others for proof

The true believers will find fault with the testing etc. however, i prefer science over claims.

Everyone has this choice-- make the right one or continue to wallow in self doubt and delusionary dreams.

Peace. Surf

 

[Redneck]

it's objective mechanical TA that doesn't work. I

Context and trade experience can't be tested.

My last post in this thread


Objective..., contextualizing - is QUANT-ifying - whatever the hell is on the chart

No one seems to bitch when / how quants make money

But watch a discretionary trader do the same exact thing - ohhhh hell to the no..., it can't be done

And to say context can't be tested - go tell that to a quant - mine is tested every damn day



RN

 

[k p]

Why should those who have a working method share with people here only to be met with extreme cynicism?

Also, have you considered that what wbtrader described is the reason that traders don't bothering offering anything more tangible? What he describes make plenty of sense. If successful traders have already come to the forums, described some of their methods only to be met with bullshit, I see how others can watch that take place and not wanna go down that same road.

That being said, there's enough information out there (easily accessible, btw) for anyone to come up with a working methodology. The problem is that many people here are lazy and don't wanna put in the time and effort to learn basic principles and come up with a method that works for them. Instead, they're usually looking for a method in a box. They wanna be told not only how to analyze the market, but they also want others to micromanage their trade as well. In other words, they wanna read a trading book and find a system that they can immediately apply without having to tweak anything on their own and it doesn't work like that. I guess that's their way of avoiding responsibility for their fuck ups.

I agree with everything you say. No trader has to share anything or help anyone, but if they want to make a statement about something, this is what opens up the can of worms about demonstration or verified statements. In some respects, isn't it the experts that are in a way feeding this constant fight? Marketsurfer comes to every thread to say it can't be done. If nobody challenged him, it would make for a short thread. But he is challenged, and those that take it upon themselves to challenge him don't really offer compelling proof. That is the issue and I think a very valid one.

And I agree that there is lots out there, almost too much, but you know, all of it has to be tested. Don't most PA guys say they don't use indicators at all? And yet aren't there guys who automate everything, and make that work? So in essence, I think almost everything out there works to some degree. So the fact that there is so much information out there and so many different methodologies doesn't actually help the issue.

You can say that the trader who wants to be spoon fed is doing so to avoid taking responsibility for their fuckups, and you're absolutely right, but this once again in no way invalidates the premise that there is no proof or demonstration at ET of PA guys able to make it work.

I once wanted to add a component to my car, and wow, so many helpful forums that showed me how to do it. I also once wanted to figure out how to clean the dust out of my notebook fan, and wow, so many helpful forums that showed me how. With trading, I understand that its not nearly as simple, and I don't expect someone to give me the secret sauce. But many replies here are of the "go and test it for yourself" variety, which are not all that helpful.

Perhaps the biggest problem is that so many struggling traders want to see if its in fact even possible for a retail guy to make money. Usually before you invest your time and money in something, you want to see if it does actually work. Every time the so called experts here complain that the newbie just wants something handed to them, I don't think this is fair at all. All the newbie really wants to see is that the so called expert has taken something which he says is useful, like PA, and can use it to make money. But without any real evidence of this, I think the newbie is justified in being skeptical, especially if he himself has already lost money.

I wish I was around way back when, when there were supposedly traders on here making great calls day after day. NoDoji has even mentioned that she would see traders on Skype make amazing calls day after day. We don't have any of this here now so I think a bit of compassion for the struggling trader is necessary. Everyone says how great ET used to be, and yet nobody seems to be doing anything to make it great again... all they offer is hollow arguments. It isn't just lazy traders who want to be given a method, its simply people who rightfully have a healthy dose of skepticism who want to see something demonstrated, especially when there are countless reports of trading rooms that have been shown to be frauds where the supposed trades weren't actually taken and the fills suggested didn't happen.

 

[Money Trust]

I agree with everything you say. No trader has to share anything or help anyone, but if they want to make a statement about something, this is what opens up the can of worms about demonstration or verified statements. In some respects, isn't it the experts that are in a way feeding this constant fight? Marketsurfer comes to every thread to say it can't be done. If nobody challenged him, it would make for a short thread. But he is challenged, and those that take it upon themselves to challenge him don't really offer compelling proof. That is the issue and I think a very valid one.

And I agree that there is lots out there, almost too much, but you know, all of it has to be tested. Don't most PA guys say they don't use indicators at all? And yet aren't there guys who automate everything, and make that work? So in essence, I think almost everything out there works to some degree. So the fact that there is so much information out there and so many different methodologies doesn't actually help the issue.

You can say that the trader who wants to be spoon fed is doing so to avoid taking responsibility for their fuckups, and you're absolutely right, but this once again in no way invalidates the premise that there is no proof or demonstration at ET of PA guys able to make work.

I once wanted to add a component to my car, and wow, so many helpful forums that showed me how to do it. I also once wanted to figure out how to clean the dust out of my notebook fan, and wow, so many helpful forums that showed me how. With trading, I understand that its not nearly as simple, and I don't expect someone to give me the secret sauce. But many replies here are of the "go and test it for yourself" variety, which are not all that helpful.

Perhaps the biggest problem is that so many struggling traders want to see if its in fact even possible for a retail guy to make money. Usually before you invest your time and money in something, you want to see if it does actually work. Every time the so called experts here complain that the newbie just wants something handed to them, I don't think this is fair at all. All the newbie really wants to see is that the so called expert has taken something which he says is useful, like PA, and can use it to make money. But without any real evidence of this, I think the newbie is justified in being skeptical, especially if he himself has already lost money.

I wish I was around way back when, where there were supposedly traders on here making great calls day after day. NoDoji has even mentioned that she would see traders on Skype make amazing calls day after day. We don't have any of this here now so I think a bit of compassion for the struggling trader is necessary. It isn't just lazy traders who want to be given a method, its simply people who rightfully have a healthy dose of skepticism who want to see something demonstrated, especially when there are countless reports of trading rooms that have been shown to be frauds where the supposed trades weren't actually taken and the fills suggested didn't happen.

I'll end it with this. I had a journal earlier this year in which I was making calls ahead of time and showing the actual P&L. Every single one of my calls was correct....and I'm a pure PA trader. My only problem is that a lot of times I chickened out and was still right.

 

[k p]

I'll end it with this. I had a journal earlier this year in which I was making calls ahead of time and showing the actual P&L. Every single one of my calls was correct....and I'm a pure PA trader. My only problem is that a lot of times I chickened out and was still right.

Sweet.. shame I didn't see your journal. Its interesting that you say you were right, but that you chickened out since this shows how important the psychology component is. How are you doing now? Would you say you are consistently profitable and can live off your trading income?

 

[marketsurfer]

One must always remember we have had multiple TA and Price Action players on elite trader claiming to make 3X the daily range of the indexes, others claim to have cracked the market code via charts, and still others preach a pure price action method that hasn't changed since the 1920's.

Come on guys---

 

[Money Trust]

Sweet.. shame I didn't see your journal. Its interesting that you say you were right, but that you chickened out since this shows how important the psychology component is. How are you doing now? Would you say you are consistently profitable and can live off your trading income?

I'm still dealing with that issue to some degree, which has lead to me spending a considerable amount of time tweaking my method. Although I was right most of the time, I was risking an insane amount of money in my trades. But, to answer your question, I'm not full-time yet.

BTW, here's my journal thread: http://www.elitetrader.com/et/index.php?threads/from-3k-to-50k-in-2015.288703/

If you have access to chart, view the dates that each call was made and see whether or not the markets followed through in my direction. Although my goal was to make $50k, I could've easily tripled that had I not chickened out so much during the year.

 

[k p]

I'm still dealing with that issue to some degree, which has lead to me spending a considerable amount of time tweaking my method. Although I was right most of the time, I was risking an insane amount of money in my trades. But, to answer your question, I'm not full-time yet.

BTW, here's my journal thread: http://www.elitetrader.com/et/index.php?threads/from-3k-to-50k-in-2015.288703/

If you have access to chart, view the dates that each call was made and see whether or not the markets followed through in my direction. Although my goal was to make $50k, I could've easily tripled that had I not chickened out so much during the year.

Thanks. Just as soon as I posted my reply, I was able to find the page on your profile that allowed me to see all the posts that were started by you, and then was able to find the exact same thread. Its a shame you didn't continue it. I find I'm mostly wanting to follow guys who trade either the NQ, ES or CL since these futures seem to attract the same crowd, which more than likely means similar methods will work quite well given that the same traders probably trade the same way.

I've seen also in my trades that I am mostly right too, but a ridiculously tight stop usually takes me out. On the other hand, I don't think widening my stop too far, or saying that I'm gonna turn this day trade into a swing trade just so I don't have to take the loss is a good strategy forward! LOL

 

[wrbtrader]

...So either verified statements are important, in which case there is none of this now, or verified statements are unnecessary since the newbie trader has to figure this out for himself, in which case all your talk about Salon du Trading isn't all that relevant. You keep saying that there are so many sources out there of verified traders, but you keep having to point to outside sources. You use this as an excuse to defend certain members here, but in no way does the availability of outside verified traders prove anything about those we have here.

Can we just stick to this? Nobody on ET is showing a clearly an ability to trade profitably. tight stops or whatever else is necessary for consistent profits, as opposed to pages of theory)...

I think you're a little lost.

For example, read your original statement and others like it.

If you chime in and say "nobody post verified statements". That allows me to choose a source anywhere on this planet.

Yet, had you originally said "nobody here at ET in the past year"...completely different discussion don't you think.

Therefore, no excuse. Your fault for not originally being specific and your fault for not saying that you yourself is talking about specific members. Further, no members are being defended in this thread by me. Seriously, who am I defending in this thread ???
(please don't say Timothy Sykes or Surf just because I mentioned their names involving a completely different topic).

Seriously, think carefully about what you're requesting...if you only want to deal with certain members that you seem to have a problem with...your head is messed up.

Regardless, why does it matter if verified trader is living in Europe, Chicago, Japan, post once every few months at BigMikesTrading or living in some remote place where they use satellite. Seriously, if you only want to stay inside the box of this forum called EliteTrader...how's that working for you so far.

Guess what, its a big world out there.

I myself, I've lived in several different countries and met traders from around the world. I quickly learned that most folks do not hang out at EliteTrader.com and many never heard of this place.

P.S. There's a similar live audited trading competition in Japan. Yet, since you're not interested in knowing anything about it...I'll discuss it elsewhere to those not trapped at this forum.