Thanking God for your good fortune is the ultimate conceit

Again, and I have said this many, many times, you are applying human logic, based in limited knowledge, limited intellectual capacity, limited sensory ability (Dogs hear things humans generally can't as an example, hawks have better eyesight, etc.) to a situation of a relationship with God.

You start with some assumptions of what God would be, and what would be proper and fair, etc. are relates to a relationship with God.

This is generally an insane process, as you are trying to make an assumptive faith (faith in non God) based argument of how things should be as relates to a relationship between God and man...relative to the personal beliefs of others.

By suggesting that those who are giving thanks to God are incorrect suggest that you know what the correct response should be for the theists as relates to your concept of God...

Really, it is the hubris of your own atheism judging theists that is what really comes through most clearly.

There is so much judgment revolving religion and the personal beliefs people have, from theist judging other theists, from atheists judging theists, to theists judging atheists as relates to the ultimate condition of God and man, or in your case, non God and man, that no point can be found that could be placed as a truth.

You are arguing from a negative, which is what atheist always seem to do when it relates to the theists and their belief systems. Since you are practicing a belief system that cannot be verified, i.e. atheism, there is again no legitimate logical platform to evaluate the beliefs of theists, and vice versa.

Why this bothers you so much, how it impacts your own personal life...i.e. what others believe as they expound their own personal belief systems is what I find most striking.

There are many religions around the world, many different belief systems, including the belief system of atheism.

I see no real and necessary reason to pass judgment on other beliefs except in an attempt to validate one's own.

My gut instinct is that you are not genuinely secure in your own personal beliefs, so there is a need to focus in on what you think the liabilities or problems are with others and their belief systems. You spend time comparing your beliefs to the beliefs of others, and looking for what is wrong with their belief systems, or how they don't match your own.

Now, this only goes to belief systems, not the manner in which people then use their belief systems in a political process to have power or influence the lives and beliefs of others.

People using their theistic or atheistic belief systems to influence others through a political process I do take issue with.




Quote from Thunderdog:

Exactly. I am simply clarifying some people's interpretation, whether or not they are aware of the conclusion that follows from such interpretation.
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Quote from Thunderdog:


Certainly not in those words. But that is the unvarnished implication -- the logic that follows: "I am grateful for this momentous victory, and I thank God for my good fortune." (Because He helped me more than He helped my opponent. He chose me. I am the Chosen One. I bask in God's glory from this victory while my opponent does not. It was God's will that I should win. Why else would I thank God for this victory?)

What is unsaid speaks just as loudly. You just have to listen for it.

Plenty of lottery winners also thank God for their luck. Yes, God pays special favor to lottery players. I did not win the last time I played because I was less deserving.
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you're assuming people don't give thanks for their defeats ...


clearly you're not a sports fan, the most heralded are those who humble themselves before their defeated foes ... Cal Ripken comes to mind ...
 
Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

Again, and I have said this many, many times, you are applying human logic, based in limited knowledge, limited intellectual capacity, limited sensory ability (Dogs hear things humans generally can't as an example, hawks have better eyesight, etc.) to a situation of a relationship with God.

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Why would one even assume there is some deity out there that we cant understand because of our limited knowledge? Without your prior indoctrination to believe in God and just using all available evidence we have today there is no reason to assume any gods exist.
 
First, do we agree that human mind, human senses, human intellect are all of a limited nature?

As far as reason to assume, there is no purely logical reason to assume anything at all...yet we do so every single day, we assume the next minute we will be alive, we assume that the car next to us on the freeway will drive brake properly, etc. because it is our human nature to assume and believe things which are not known, or not really knowable.

Human beings are incapable of functioning without a belief system of some kind.

I have no problem with your personal beliefs and personal assumptions, but you seem to perpetually have issues with others.

Again, when I see this, it makes me wonder how content you actually are in your own personal belief system, if you repeatedly find flaw in others in order to reinforce your own...

Quote from vhehn:

Why would one even assume there is some deity out there that we cant understand because of our limited knowledge? Without your prior indoctrination to believe in God and just using all available evidence we have today there is no reason to assume any gods exist.
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Quote from Thunderdog:

I am not being cynical. I am only thinking it through. Please let me try again, if you missed it the first few times. If you thank God for a victory or for your good health or wealth or whatever, then what is the person next to you who lacks all of these things to think? To the extent that your good fortune is the result of your own effort or those who have helped you, the less successful and fortunate can at least understand the difference in outcome. However, to invoke the name of God in your good fortune is to unsheathe a double-edged sword, whether you like it or not. For God to have had a hand in your success, which is why you would be thanking Him, is to indisputably assume that God had a hand in the misfortune of others less fortunate, irrespective of whether you are just concerned with your "deal" with God. How is that not a double whammy for the loser?

How you choose to frame it is up to you. I'm just following the logic to its inevitable conclusion and don't very much like where it ends up.
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The person framing this discussion is you. I am not framing. Myself and archipus have pointed out the other things a victor could be thinking. Your conclusion is not the only conclusions one may make. Thanking God for the opportunity for victory in no way puts the loser down.

I thank God for my team and my coaches , for the fact that he let a guy like me (read unworthy) win a super bowl.

How does a speech like that put down the losers.

Like I said I have never seen a victor say Hey God thanks for making me great and the other guy a piece of shit.
 
Quote from nutmeg:

"("There but for the grace of God go I.")"

On the flip side. Everyone who suffers misfortune begs "Why me?"

No one who has a fortunate circumstance asks "Why me?"
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I was a victim of "WHY ME" for about the last 3-4 years i have been struggling with something very dear to me...now after all these years I now know "why me"....because there is no one better to handle the situation at hand and to give and love like me....so now i actually give thanks that it happened to me and not to someone who couldn't give a flying F**k...:D
 
Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

Again, and I have said this many, many times, you are applying human logic, based in limited knowledge, limited intellectual capacity, limited sensory ability (Dogs hear things humans generally can't as an example, hawks have better eyesight, etc.)...
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Indeed, I am applying my own limited human logic. However, I am applying it to the interpretation of other humans who share my general limitations. Apples and apples.

True, I do not believe in any deity. My frail, human mind is perplexed at how some people give thanks to God and then admit that they do not even have a conceptual understanding of God or His will. How can you be thankful for something that you cannot even conceptually understand? Is it not potentially like the scenario I proposed in an earlier post, whereby a chess opponent lulls you into a forced mate by sacrificing (giving) you one or more of his pieces? Should you be thankful for those shiny pawns? Answer: Only if you are clueless. When it comes to the unknowable, there is no basis for giving thanks or anything else.

Personally, I can only be thankful for something I can understand at least in principle. If I have no conceptual understanding, as you seem to accept that we humans don't, then it is indeed like a silent dog whistle that, by definition, can only go unnoticed by our ears. Let's make a deal. I won't fake hearing the whistle if you don't fake some semblance of implicit understanding by giving thanks.

Once again, please be sure to note that I am not assessing a God in which I do not believe anyway. I am assessing the understanding and interpretation of other humans with limitations not unlike my own. Apples and apples.
 
Quote from vhehn:

Please dont use logic when arguing about God. It is an unfair weapon to use against believers because they are required to suspend logic to believe in the first place and that puts them at a disadvantage.

"People don't ask for facts in making up their minds. They would rather have one good, soul- satisfying emotion than a dozen facts."
- Robert Keith Leavitt
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there is no logic on either side of this debate...so as you conclude why use logic?? when all you need to use is faith...and both you and i use it everyday in our belief...what makes you think you use logic???? please if so....show me on paper the logic you use to come up with your belief....
 
Okay, go ahead and apply your own limited human logic to personal belief systems of others, and be completely illogical in the process...

No, it is not apples to apples at all, flawed analogy.

Simply because you are taking your own personal conclusions based on limited human logic, and evaluating the personal conclusions of others based on their own limited human logic, and thinking that your conclusions are not only right for you, but the conclusions of others are wrong for others to have. You are pushing your belief system onto others, your personal belief system because it is not in alignment with others and their belief systems.

It simply is not enough for you to be content in your own personal beliefs, which demonstrates the nature of those beliefs...

Oh, and as far as "how can you be thankful for something you cannot even conceptually understand" it is very natural.

Understanding a concept is not necessary for being thankful, as the thankful feelings come from the heart, not the intellect.

A hungry beggar who has not eaten for days is very thankful for some scraps of food, and he can have no conceptual understanding of much at all.

People are thankful for lots of things they don't truly understand, simply because their personal experience trumps the need for intellectual or conceptual understanding.

If you have ever been in love, you should understand this...

Quote from Thunderdog:

Indeed, I am applying my own limited human logic. However, I am applying it to the interpretation of other humans who share my general limitations. Apples and apples.

True, I do not believe in any deity. My frail, human mind is perplexed at how some people give thanks to God and then admit that they do not even have a conceptual understanding of God or His will. How can you be thankful for something that you cannot even conceptually understand? Is it not potentially like the scenario I proposed in an earlier post, whereby a chess opponent lulls you into a forced mate by sacrificing (giving) you one or more of his pieces? Should you be thankful for those shiny pawns? Answer: Only if you are clueless. When it comes to the unknowable, there is no basis for giving thanks or anything else.

Personally, I can only be thankful for something I can understand at least in principle. If I have no conceptual understanding, as you seem to accept that we humans don't, then it is indeed like a silent dog whistle that, by definition, can only go unnoticed by our ears. Let's make a deal. I won't fake hearing the whistle if you don't fake some semblance of implicit understanding by giving thanks.

Once again, please be sure to note that I am not assessing a God in which I do not believe anyway. I am assessing the understanding and interpretation of other humans with limitations not unlike my own. Apples and apples.
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