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Testing 1,2,3.
- Thread starter CQNC
- Start date
Ok, Ive got the deal with Patak Trading Partners. You do not need to supply ANY capital other than the deposit you have to put down in the beginning. I think its $65 right now. This is a new company and Im guessing that is going to go way up because for $65 you get access to all the CBOT/CME live feed markets. So even if you dont want a job with them, it is very useful to have access to. If you make a lot of money in you ''Combine'' you are hired. Thye have a set amount so there is no gray area in whether you get hired. I think you have to make $6,000 in the month that you are doing the Combine.
So this is pretty legit. Id say its a genius idea and maybe the best thing that could happen to wanna be traders just trying to break into the industry because you actually get to learn for a month before being thrown into trading live markets so you cant make all your mistakes without taking a big lose. Obvisouly the learning curve is longer than a month, but this program would help get out the biggest kinks before a guy goes live.
So this is pretty legit. Id say its a genius idea and maybe the best thing that could happen to wanna be traders just trying to break into the industry because you actually get to learn for a month before being thrown into trading live markets so you cant make all your mistakes without taking a big lose. Obvisouly the learning curve is longer than a month, but this program would help get out the biggest kinks before a guy goes live.
Patak and Pulsar are on the right track....but not quite there...but are initializing the "internet based remote sifting model".
Here is what may be useful:
Prop firms:
All offer a form of screening via simulation for no fee.
The prop firms have investor backing that are looking for "interesting performance prospects".
Stocks, ETFs, or futures could be utilized.
No deposits.
......................................................
The current models that require deposits have questionable legal aspects, and one never knows what is really happening to their deposit .
Schoenfeld, Assent, perhaps Genesis, Bear Capital, and others are offering suggestions about the current direction of the more common present models.
One would suspect that there are going to be even far fewer firms as volume recedes further, and trading venues become more difficult.
The eminis daily $amounts dwarf that of many other vehicles, and significant sums must go in this direction.
.......................................................
What is interesting is that live BATS quotes are free via Worden's "freestock charts.com", and that there may be further changes to the cost of real time data in the near future, seeing how the industry will be grabbing whatever is left, with the prospects of worldwide depression taking shape.
......................................................
One could say that the wannabetrader trader model was made better from 2000 to 2010.....but after 2010 perhaps the model will come about , something like:
1) prove your edge in live simulation at no cost
Data costs could drop next to nothing in order to allow for this....thus enabling a sizable "sifting" process. Firms would be looking to sift bigger numbers.
2) No deposits (SEC rules etc.)
3) Small initial funding that is increased as performance merits.
......................................................
The industry in terms of business models and legalities has changed quite a bit from 2000 to 2010, and in 2020 will be quite different than it is today.
The industry is in its infancy, because even just 10 years ago, the trading venues were dramatically different.
Here is what may be useful:
Prop firms:
All offer a form of screening via simulation for no fee.
The prop firms have investor backing that are looking for "interesting performance prospects".
Stocks, ETFs, or futures could be utilized.
No deposits.
......................................................
The current models that require deposits have questionable legal aspects, and one never knows what is really happening to their deposit .
Schoenfeld, Assent, perhaps Genesis, Bear Capital, and others are offering suggestions about the current direction of the more common present models.
One would suspect that there are going to be even far fewer firms as volume recedes further, and trading venues become more difficult.
The eminis daily $amounts dwarf that of many other vehicles, and significant sums must go in this direction.
.......................................................
What is interesting is that live BATS quotes are free via Worden's "freestock charts.com", and that there may be further changes to the cost of real time data in the near future, seeing how the industry will be grabbing whatever is left, with the prospects of worldwide depression taking shape.
......................................................
One could say that the wannabetrader trader model was made better from 2000 to 2010.....but after 2010 perhaps the model will come about , something like:
1) prove your edge in live simulation at no cost
Data costs could drop next to nothing in order to allow for this....thus enabling a sizable "sifting" process. Firms would be looking to sift bigger numbers.
2) No deposits (SEC rules etc.)
3) Small initial funding that is increased as performance merits.
......................................................
The industry in terms of business models and legalities has changed quite a bit from 2000 to 2010, and in 2020 will be quite different than it is today.
The industry is in its infancy, because even just 10 years ago, the trading venues were dramatically different.
Quote from Timeout: [/B]
Kudos. Absolutely. Some really intelligent, well thought-out, organised thinking here, which shows that the industry has started to evolve beyond the churn and burn model Assent created, that maybe something better will come of this industry now that retail has merged towards proprietary, and proprietary has been stripped away from the banks and where the money should be, in hedge funds.
I want to reply to this more specifically, but it's Sunday, God isn't trading today.
Quote from Timeout:
Patak and Pulsar are on the right track....but not quite there...but are initializing the "internet based remote sifting model".
Here is what may be useful:
Prop firms:
All offer a form of screening via simulation for no fee.
The prop firms have investor backing that are looking for "interesting performance prospects".
Stocks, ETFs, or futures could be utilized.
No deposits.
OK, I'm going to have to take the other side of this here. Look you guys, there are a lot of people on this site that are getting the mistaken impression that some model is broken or not working. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Here in Chicago we have over 50 prop firms. They are having no trouble finding traders, good traders. Don't fix what's not broken. These firms are executing the same model they have for years and it works. It works very well.
I don't want to sound like a dick here, but the fact of the matter is the equity prop firm has been a dumping ground for years. All the guys that couldn't get into an investment bank or top tier prop firm have gone the route of the deposit prop firms. Those firms were never meant to be bulge bracket firms. They are bucket shops. Don't get me wrong, there are good traders at many of these places, but a majority of the guys that are trying to trade there are not tier 1 traders.
So if you guys really want to trade prop there are two ways to do this. One, is to be fresh out of a top school with advanced degrees in stats, engineering or computer science. The other is to walk into one of these firms with your trading sheets in hand. Show them you have the stuff and they will point you to your seat. Everything else is bullshit. The system works, stop trying to change it or claim it needs changing.
Patek - it's a good deal. I'll give it a go - will post my experiences with them if anyone cares.
Quote from Maverick74:
OK, I'm going to have to take the other side of this here. Look you guys, there are a lot of people on this site that are getting the mistaken impression that some model is broken or not working. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Not sure why the turnaround, Mav, because this was about Patak's play money test, not other futures brokers in Chicago. Personally, I determined it wasn't legitimate, which you've somewhat confirmed, and I doubt a couple of conspicuously newly-registered users popping up to defend the company is going to change much.
The only thing I'd add is, for those traders who don't have Ivy League educations, math degrees from MIT, or have 5+ years under their belts, the remaining lower common denominator is left twisting in the wind to flounder trading retail with TD Ameritrade or worse.
There has to be some kind of evolution of equity prop trading now that the Volcker rule is redistributing bank money into hedge funds, something I think I've been predicting all along, and posting news articles to prove it's happening (albeit very quietly) as I write this...
Quote from CQNC:
Not sure why the turnaround, Mav, because this was about Patak's play money test, not other futures brokers in Chicago. Personally, I determined it wasn't legitimate, which you've somewhat confirmed, and I doubt a couple of conspicuously newly-registered users popping up to defend the company is going to change much.
The only thing I'd add is, for those traders who don't have Ivy League educations, math degrees from MIT, or have 5+ years under their belts, the remaining lower common denominator is left twisting in the wind to flounder trading retail with TD Ameritrade or worse.
There has to be some kind of evolution of equity prop trading now that the Volcker rule is redistributing bank money into hedge funds, something I think I've been predicting all along, and posting news articles to prove it's happening (albeit very quietly) as I write this...
No turnaround here. It's just that the game has been the same for years. There are a lot of guys running around on ET acting like we need a revolution in prop trading similiar to that of the upcoming elections. Guys screaming change! But there is nothing broken with the system. It's actually really efficient. In fact, let me take this a step further. I would argue the prop world has done a far better job of finding trading talent and producing results when compared to hedge funds and even investment banks when you remove market making activities.
What I said earlier is that the idea of running a simulator on 4 weeks of data is just not going to work. What would work is 3 years of data on a simulator. But honestly, who would dedicate 3 years to trading on a simulator? This is a tough business to break into, no one is saying that it's not. But prop trading is not an entitlement. Our consitution does not grant every ET'er the right to have a spot at a prop firm.
Luckily for most of ET you can open a futures account for 5k to 10k and trade on $500 margins. Not suggesting anyone do that, but the opportunity is there for those so inclined.