Tesla 2023

Scratched EV battery? Your insurer may have to junk the whole car

For many EVs, even slightly damaged battery packs cannot be repaired, leading to higher premiums and undercutting gains from going electric.




Bloomberg


LONDON/DETROIT -- For many electric vehicles, there is no way to repair or assess even slightly damaged battery packs after accidents, forcing insurance companies to write off cars with few miles -- leading to higher premiums and undercutting gains from going electric.
And now those battery packs are piling up in scrapyards in some countries, a previously unreported and expensive gap in what was supposed to be a "circular economy."
"We are buying electric cars for sustainability reasons," said Matthew Avery, research director at automotive risk intelligence company Thatcham Research. "But an EV isn't very sustainable if you've got to throw the battery away after a minor collision."
Battery packs can cost tens of thousands of dollars and represent up to 50 percent of an EV's price tag, often making it uneconomical to replace them.
While some automakers like archiveFord and GM said they have made battery packs easier to repair, Tesla has taken the opposite tack with its Model Y, whose new structural battery pack has been described by experts as having "zero repairability."



Tesla did not respond to a request for comment.

A Reuters search of EV salvage sales in the U.S. and Europe shows a large portion of low-mileage Teslas, but also models from Nissan, Hyundai Motor, Stellantis, BMW, Renault and others.

EVs constitute only a fraction of vehicles on the road, making industry-wide data hard to come by, but the trend of low-mileage zero-emission cars being written off with minor damage is growing. Tesla's decision to make battery packs "structural" -- part of the car's unibody -- has allowed it to cut production costs but risks pushing those costs back to consumers and insurers.


Tesla has not referred to any problems with insurers writing off its vehicles. But in January CEO Elon Musk said premiums from third-party insurance companies "in some cases were unreasonably high."
Unless Tesla and other automakers produce more easily repairable battery packs and provide third-party access to battery cell data, already-high insurance premiums will keep rising as EV sales grow and more low-mileage cars get scrapped after collisions, insurers and industry experts said.
"The number of cases is going to increase, so the handling of batteries is a crucial point," said Christoph Lauterwasser, managing director of the Allianz Center for Technology, a research institute owned by the insurer Allianz.
Lauterwasser noted EV battery production emits far more CO2 than fossil-fuel models, meaning EVs must be driven for thousands of miles before they offset those extra emissions.
"If you throw away the vehicle at an early stage, you've lost pretty much all advantage in terms of CO2 emissions," he said.
Most automakers said their battery packs are repairable, though few seem willing to share access to battery data. Insurers, leasing companies and car repair shops are already fighting with automakers in the EU over access to lucrative connected-car data.
Lauterwasser said access to EV battery data is part of that fight. Allianz has seen scratched battery packs where the cells inside are likely undamaged, but without diagnostic data it has to write off those vehicles.
Ford and GM tout their newer, more repairable packs. But the new, large 4680 cells in the Model Y are glued into a pack that forms part of the car's structure and cannot be easily removed or replaced, experts said.
In January, Musk said the automaker has been making design and software changes to its vehicles to lower repair costs and insurance premiums.
The company also offers its own insurance product in a dozen U.S. states to Tesla owners at lower rates.
Insurers and industry experts also note that EVs, because they are loaded with all the latest safety features, so far have had fewer accidents than traditional cars.
The subject has been discussed ad nauseam and debunked over and over. In the US batteries are recycled or reused and it's probably the same in Europe. It might be more difficult elsewhere but car batteries are very valuable so I would think there's a supply chain market for them.
Tesla batteries have a 100k miles or 10 years warranty. I've been looking at modifying a classic into an EV and can attest to the difficulty and cost to obtain Tesla batteries.

With their new structural solution it gets very complicated to replace (as Monroe demonstrated). I wonder how Tesla services them... Maybe replace the vehicle? Of course, every auto manufacturer has a supply chain process. I'm only familiar with Tesla.

It remains if we want to talk about that, ICE vehicles have been rotting in junk yards for many decades and engine oil seeping in the grounds of many of those and dirty garages.
 
Great news! The impact of replacing ICE trucks with EVs at the ports will be enormous. 1. Elimination of diesel pollution 2. Elimination of noise. As a result, the once poor neighborhoods around the ports will be worth fortunes and the smarter poor people will hang on to their houses for high cash payouts or better. Gentrification will mean safer neighborhoods on the waterfronts and many opportunities for development.
 
The subject has been discussed ad nauseam and debunked over and over. In the US batteries are recycled or reused and it's probably the same in Europe. It might be more difficult elsewhere but car batteries are very valuable so I would think there's a supply chain market for them.
Tesla batteries have a 100k miles or 10 years warranty. I've been looking at modifying a classic into an EV and can attest to the difficulty and cost to obtain Tesla batteries.

With their new structural solution it gets very complicated to replace (as Monroe demonstrated). I wonder how Tesla services them... Maybe replace the vehicle? Of course, every auto manufacturer has a supply chain process. I'm only familiar with Tesla.

It remains if we want to talk about that, ICE vehicles have been rotting in junk yards for many decades and engine oil seeping in the grounds of many of those and dirty garages.
Recycling of Li batts leaves much to be desired. It's basically crush battery and extract powder and metals to start from scratch; very energy inefficient. One of the chinese comps. was taking the approach of repurposing (reduce, repurpose, recycle) retired transportation sector batteries into less mission critical storage batteries. Looks like China's banning the practice due to failure incidents though.

Great news! The impact of replacing ICE trucks with EVs at the ports will be enormous. 1. Elimination of diesel pollution 2. Elimination of noise. As a result, the once poor neighborhoods around the ports will be worth fortunes and the smarter poor people will hang on to their houses for high cash payouts or better. Gentrification will mean safer neighborhoods on the waterfronts and many opportunities for development.
nice utopia dream you got there. The reality is shipping freight will balloon as the rail infra isn't there to move product out of state (for similar look at post COVID and blocked Suez shipping costs). Carbon footprint likely to exacerbate as companies shift to less efficient and smaller gas powered trucks. Cali to lose billions in biz as shipping lanes open via Baja/AZ way or WA/OR. Blackstone et.al to buy up RE pennies on the dollar to displace low earners and "gentrify" rentals for high earners.

Our rail system is woefully underutilized:
rail-vs-truck.jpg
 
Recycling of Li batts leaves much to be desired. It's basically crush battery and extract powder and metals to start from scratch; very energy inefficient.
Tell more about the used oils and ICE engine recycling business for comparison...
Lithium batteries recycling is a booming business. Everyone is now familiar with JB Strobel's Redwood Materials recycling for Tesla but there are well over a dozen global players in the sector. Nothing left to be desired, I assure you.

nice utopia dream you got there. The reality is shipping freight will balloon as the rail infra isn't there to move product out of state (for similar look at post COVID and blocked Suez shipping costs). Carbon footprint likely to exacerbate as companies shift to less efficient and smaller gas powered trucks. Cali to lose billions in biz as shipping lanes open via Baja/AZ way or WA/OR. Blackstone et.al to buy up RE pennies on the dollar to displace low earners and "gentrify" rentals for high earners.
You clearly don't know much about shipping and logistics on the West Coast. My scenario is far more likely to materialize than yours.
 
Tell more about the used oils and ICE engine recycling business for comparison...
Lithium batteries recycling is a booming business. Everyone is now familiar with JB Strobel's Redwood Materials recycling for Tesla but there are well over a dozen global players in the sector. Nothing left to be desired, I assure you.

What is there to tell? All junkyard vehicles are drained before being put out on the yard per EPA regulations. Glycol is recycled, used oil is re-refined since it's much cheaper than starting from crude (many synthetics start this way). Cars spend a year or two in the yard as they're stripped of parts to be repurposed (to keep other cars on the road; a much more energy efficient endeavor than well to wheels footprint of a new car) before being crushed separated and melted. Do you think a junked tesla chassis doesn't get the same treatment as above?

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/under-the-hood/vehicle-maintenance/oil-recycling.htm
  • The EPA reports that roughly 380 million gallons of oil are recycled each year, which more effectively utilizes this valuable resource. In fact, it only takes one gallon of used oil to produce 2.5 quarts of new lubricating oil compared to 42 gallons of crude oil to produce the same.
  • When re-refining oil, approximately one-third of the energy is needed compared to the process of removing impurities in crude oil to reach lubricant quality. This means that energy expenditure is more efficiently managed.
Iron and aluminum melting (engine makeup) is amongst the most efficient processes in the recycling business. Same can't be said about lithium recovery.

In fact, recycling scrap steel uses 75 percent less energy to process than iron ore, while recycling aluminum uses 95 percent less energy.

I am a fan of redwood, and their bulk recovery rates are very promising. I've yet to see energy use to recover said raw material and how it compares to staring from scratch though. Them and a Euro company are using liquid Nitrogen last i heard before crushing. Li. recycling hurdles isn't some unknown, I am not sure how this is even debatable. You clearly don't know much about recycling of materials.

You clearly don't know much about shipping and logistics on the West Coast. My scenario is far more likely to materialize than yours.

I guess we will. I know most truckers aren't into saving the planet or having a truck not moving 24/7 vs waiting for a charge or wasting real estate storing spares. The proposition of moving to gasoline or PHEV trucks to run the Cali section seems more tenable.
 
...In fact, it only takes one gallon of used oil to produce 2.5 quarts of new lubricating oil...

This is a surprising statistic. Motor oil doesn't "go bad", it just gets dirty. So all that needs to be done is filter the HELL out of the old oil to make it reusable. But we lose nearly 50% of the original oil in the process?
 
What is there to tell? All junkyard vehicles are drained before being put out on the yard per EPA regulations. Glycol is recycled, used oil is re-refined since it's much cheaper than starting from crude (many synthetics start this way). Cars spend a year or two in the yard as they're stripped of parts to be repurposed (to keep other cars on the road; a much more energy efficient endeavor than well to wheels footprint of a new car) before being crushed separated and melted. Do you think a junked tesla chassis doesn't get the same treatment as above?

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/under-the-hood/vehicle-maintenance/oil-recycling.htm
  • The EPA reports that roughly 380 million gallons of oil are recycled each year, which more effectively utilizes this valuable resource. In fact, it only takes one gallon of used oil to produce 2.5 quarts of new lubricating oil compared to 42 gallons of crude oil to produce the same.
  • When re-refining oil, approximately one-third of the energy is needed compared to the process of removing impurities in crude oil to reach lubricant quality. This means that energy expenditure is more efficiently managed.
Iron and aluminum melting (engine makeup) is amongst the most efficient processes in the recycling business. Same can't be said about lithium recovery.

In fact, recycling scrap steel uses 75 percent less energy to process than iron ore, while recycling aluminum uses 95 percent less energy.

I am a fan of redwood, and their bulk recovery rates are very promising. I've yet to see energy use to recover said raw material and how it compares to staring from scratch though. Them and a Euro company are using liquid Nitrogen last i heard before crushing. Li. recycling hurdles isn't some unknown, I am not sure how this is even debatable. You clearly don't know much about recycling of materials.



I guess we will. I know most truckers aren't into saving the planet or having a truck not moving 24/7 vs waiting for a charge or wasting real estate storing spares. The proposition of moving to gasoline or PHEV trucks to run the Cali section seems more tenable.
I agree that both EV and ICE vehicles require a fair amount of post utilisation processing. You suggested EVs aren't meeting their part of the bargain because their batteries. My point is ICE vehicles are at least as complicated. EV tech is moving so fast that I expect their recyclability will be much higher than ICE vehicles.

As for ports and trucking, 99% of those trucks simply go from port to warehouse and back multiple times a day. Due to port congestion, it's usual for truckers to have to wait well over an hour in line to pick up or drop off a container. While the system would need to evolve to give truckers the opportunity to charge while not losing their place in the queue, that's simple logistics with difficult actors.
Port zones are socially poor today because few who can afford it want to live around diesel pollution from ships, port equipment and trucks. Over the decades truckers have had to upgrade their engines every few years to meet pollution regulations, but switching to EV would change everything. Ships are already required to use shore power when berthed, electric port equipment is being tested to replace diesel, so trucks are last in the chain and most polluting (diesel and noise). When the switch is complete there will be no more pollution from ports on now highly valuable real estate because of the water views. For example, West Oakland is poor, dangerous and polluted. It's also flat, with prime views of the bay, easy access to multiple freeways and a commuter train station. Within 15 years it will become the most sought after real estate in the Bay, particularly if the Oakland A's ballpark is built on... port property. All that because of the switch from diesel power to electric.
 
I agree that both EV and ICE vehicles require a fair amount of post utilisation processing. You suggested EVs aren't meeting their part of the bargain because their batteries. My point is ICE vehicles are at least as complicated. EV tech is moving so fast that I expect their recyclability will be much higher than ICE vehicles.
Then you're agreeing to something I'm not saying at all. An EV & an ICE chassis are recycled identically....An ICE engine and transmission is just more added mass of the same elements a chassis is made of (iron and aluminum). You shred it, you separate it, you melt it. You can't do that w/an LI battery installed.


[/QUOTE]
As for ports and trucking, 99% of those trucks simply go from port to warehouse and back multiple times a day. Due to port congestion, it's usual for truckers to have to wait well over an hour in line to pick up or drop off a container. While the system would need to evolve to give truckers the opportunity to charge while not losing their place in the queue, that's simple logistics with difficult actors.
Port zones are socially poor today because few who can afford it want to live around diesel pollution from ships, port equipment and trucks. Over the decades truckers have had to upgrade their engines every few years to meet pollution regulations, but switching to EV would change everything. Ships are already required to use shore power when berthed, electric port equipment is being tested to replace diesel, so trucks are last in the chain and most polluting (diesel and noise). When the switch is complete there will be no more pollution from ports on now highly valuable real estate because of the water views. For example, West Oakland is poor, dangerous and polluted. It's also flat, with prime views of the bay, easy access to multiple freeways and a commuter train station. Within 15 years it will become the most sought after real estate in the Bay, particularly if the Oakland A's ballpark is built on... port property. All that because of the switch from diesel power to electric.
I remain skeptical.
 
From my experience, it is time to load up TSLA again.

Last time I went heavy was on a quarter when they were about to open a Shanghai factory. Now they are building a battery factory in a typical "China Speed", probably less than a year.

Also if TSLA were to introduce a "compact" EV sedan, they will crash every car company in the US. Outside of the US there will be BYD and VW to compete with.
 
Back
Top