Technical Analysis is total rubbish! Here's the proof!

[wrbtrader]

I invited you first to show me 5 year+ audited track records of pure TA traders who made a killing. And then I am happy to post names of traders who take a non TA approach and are long term profitable.

Define made a killing considering such a statement is grandiose in nature.

Define pure TA traders too because the last definition I've seen was at this forum (elitetrader.com) and it was stated by a popular member of one of the most popular technical threads at this forum...its TA without charts.

In contrast, I remember hearing that statement from an institutional trading pal @ BNP Paribas.

He use to say the same thing...they don't use TA. Yet, one day I was in town where he worked and he invited me up to his office for normal chit chat type conversation and making final preps for a cycling trip. Oddly, there are videos of traders at BNP Paribas...professional institutional traders of the Fixed Income trading desks using and talking about technical analysis.

While walking through the main office with him...similar like the office you see in the above video...past a dozen or so trading desks...I notice almost all the desks had a monitor with charts and the other monitors seem to have just data, news and other info involving the trade execution platform. Some even had plots of indicators on the charts.

I then stopped and joked...you guys don't use TA ? Why do I see all the charts.

He looked at me and said...they have no input into our trade decisions. He said that to me with a straight face. Yeah, I scratched my head a little because if something has "no input"...I wouldn't let it occupy any space on my desk or office.

Then I got it...that magical moment. There are people that use charts but don't believe they are using TA.

There are others that look at data only (no charts) and will bash anyone that uses charts in any compacity to help with a trade decision...they don't like people that uses TA.

Similar to people out there that say they're price action only traders but they have indicators on their charts.

Maybe its all above my head for someone like me to comprehend like those profiles on Linkin by traders of instituional trading firms refereing to their department titles or job qualifications involving technical analysis...sometimes refer to as TA.

P.S. There's more to profitable trading than TA alone but that implies its useful.

wrbtrader

 

[NoodleStrudle]

I am not sure how many years ago your story occurred. Not a single guest, family member, friend, or vendor is nowadays allowed on ANY trading floor at banks. Even Bloomberg and Reuters have largely been banned from visiting trading floors. Maybe there is a bank that may still allow guests but BNP is for sure not one of them. Compliance regulations and rules have been tightened a long time ago. Perhaps you saw a trading desk at a non sell side firm. And perhaps that desk was an execution trading desk.

There is nothing wrong watching charts. And every trader will factor in current and past prices into trading decisions. But I claim not a single of those guys only uses current and past prices and still generates pnl that justifies him occupying a seat for years.

We should not conflate definitions here : just because someone factors in prices does not mean he or she peruses technical analysis. Prices are inputs. They can be inputs to TA and they can be inputs to a purchasing decision such as a computer purchase.

Define made a killing considering such a statement is grandiose in nature.

Define pure TA traders too because the last definition I've seen was at this forum (elitetrader.com) and it was stated by a popular member of one of the most popular technical threads at this forum...its TA without charts.

In contrast, I remember hearing that statement from an institutional trading pal @ BNP Paribas.

He use to say the same thing...they don't use TA. Yet, one day I was in town where he worked and he invited me up to his office for normal chit chat type conversation and making final preps for a cycling trip.

While walking through the main office with him...past a dozen or so trading desks...I notice almost all the desks had a monitor with charts and the other monitors seem to have just data, news and other info.

I then stopped and joked...you guys don't use TA ?

Why do I see all the charts. He looked at me and said...they have no input into our trade decisions. Yeah, I scratched my head a little because if something has "no input"...I wouldn't let it occupy any space on my desk or office.

Then I got it...that magical moment. There are people that use charts but don't believe they are using TA.

There are others that look at data only (no charts) and will bash anyone that uses charts in any compacity to help with a trade decision...they don't like people that uses TA.

Similar to people out there that say they're price action only traders but they have indicators on their charts.

Maybe its all above my head for someone like me to comprehend.

wrbtrader

 

[wrbtrader]

I am not sure how many years ago your story occurred. Not a single guest, family member, friend, or vendor is nowadays allowed on ANY trading floor at banks. Even Bloomberg and Reuters have largely been banned from visiting trading floors. Maybe there is a bank that may still allow guests but BNP is for sure not one of them. Compliance regulations and rules have been tightened a long time ago. Perhaps you saw a trading desk at a non sell side firm. And perhaps that desk was an execution trading desk.

There is nothing wrong watching charts. And every trade will factor in current and past prices into trading decisions. But I claim not a single of those guys only uses current and past prices and still generates pnl that justifies him occupying a seat for years.

Very wrong and it occurred between 2000 - 2010...multple times for different reasons.

On one particular occasion...someone's entire family were invited into the office for a birthday celebration during the lunch period although there were traders still at their desks doing their job. BNP and Credit Suisse is very much one of them.

Yet, very true about bans on trading floors at the exchanges.

I don't know anything about Bloomberg or Reuters being banned.

P.S. I can show you a video of a St. Patrick's Day celebration marching through the trading room of Credit Suisse with a kid marching behind the band of one of the employees. Video uploaded on Youtube by an employee...

How's that for the so called compliance department.

wrbtrader

 

[NoodleStrudle]

I always find it hilarious how some people think they can be profitable trading by just watching some prices,whether in chart or any other form. They may even go as far as building derivatives of such prices to come up with various indicators. Those indicators define the past not the future. That is a mathematical fact.

And then the exact same people, when being confronted with a purchasing decision of let's say, a graphics card, they then quickly glance at past prices, the current price, and then spend an awful long time to read up on crypto mining trends, innovations at Nvidia and AMD, they study announcements of card releases, reviews ratings, ...

The card may cost 600 bucks. Yet they have no shame in gambling away the family savings in the amounts of tens of thousands. Just always bewilders me how some humans think and make decisions.

With that, despite disagreements I wish no-one losses and hope to see you on the other side of my trades. Best wishes everyone I think I made my point here apparently clear.

 

[NoodleStrudle]

Yes.... 8 years ago or longer as you yourself said. So, not sure why you say I am wrong.

And yes they may have a family day once or x times a year. Guess why. Because the other times visitors are not allowed



Best wishes to your trading. I bow out...

Very wrong and it occurred between 2000 - 2010...multple times for different reasons.

On one particular occasion...someone's entire family were invited into the office for a birthday celebration during the lunch period although there were traders still at their desks doing their job. BNP and Credit Suisse is very much one of them.

Yet, very true about bans on trading floors at the exchanges.

I don't know anything about Bloomberg or Reuters being banned.

P.S. I can show you a video of a St. Patrick's Day celebration marching through the trading room of Credit Suisse with a kid marching behind the band of one of the employees. Video uploaded on Youtube by an employee.

wrbtrader

 

[tommcginnis]

I think I made my point here apparently clear.

Indeed you have: you have posted your way into intermindable loops and self-contradictions 3 different times. I hope you read this over when you are sober.

 

[NoodleStrudle]

Of course you found that out right after I announced I am done on this topic. And of course you cant show the courtesy to reply to someone who picked up on your point. Sorry bro, I won't take the bait. Good luck with your price driven algorithms.

Indeed you have: you have posted your way into intermindable loops and self-contradictions 3 different times. I hope you read this over when you are sober.

 

[wrbtrader]

Yes.... 8 years ago or longer as you yourself said. So, not sure why you say I am wrong.

And yes they may have a family day once or x times a year. Guess why. Because the other times visitors are not allowed



Best wishes to your trading. I bow out...

I'm consider to be a guest...I'm not family in reference to these particular visits. Other locations (not mention)...I am a family member.

Yet, nobody can just walk in, get on an elevator to the trading room. You still gotta sign in and be escorted.

Most recently 2015 at BNP.

Regardless, not the issue. The issue is about institutional traders as shown in the video that use charts...some with indicators on those charts and then say they are not using TA. I have others from 2018 (not publish) from employees of the same institutional trading firm.

I just think its a slippery conversation especially the ones that say they use charts but it has not input in their trade decision. Therefore, they are not using TA.

In my book, if someone plots it...they are using it regardless if it has a little or large impact.

wrbtrader

 

[KevinD]

The only exceptions that I'm aware of carry a jail sentence...

Or you can gain election to Congress.

 

[wrbtrader]

...But I claim not a single of those guys only uses current and past prices and still generates pnl that justifies him occupying a seat for years...

Strongly agree if its another way of saying using TA alone (all by itself and nothing else) will generated consistent profits...regardless if you're retail or institutional.

Also, I admit I was wrong because I thought you had implied you didn't know any institutional traders using technical analysis. That's the reason why posted the video of the institutional trader at BNP...a trader that uses TA as one of his tools although I've heard other BNP traders say they don't use TA.

I've personally watched +50 institutional traders at 3 different firms over the years use TA...most recently a few a couple of months ago although I now realize many most likely believe they are not using TA while its clearly plotted on their charts.

Largest trader account using TA as one of their tools...20 million in Energy futures while he's more heavy into real time news, real time maps and such.

wrbtrader