Teachers Unions & poor education in America
- Thread starter hippie
- Start date
For parents and students out there: If there is a subject that the teacher is no good, here is free tutoring help online.
http://www.khanacademy.org/
http://www.khanacademy.org/
From my point of view ...
The 1960s was the begining of the end of limited economic opporunities for women. For a century, America had half of its best and brightest focused on just a couple of professions ... teaching and nursing. Since the 1960s, the opporunites for women have expended significantly each year, to the point women can enter virtually any profession.
A women's abiltiy to be employed in almost any job has resulted in compensation reality. Limit any groups abiltiy to market themselves, and society can obtain their services at a reduced price. That limiting factor disapears, and society has to pay fair market value. IMO ... this has issue has had a signficant impact on the cost and quality of teachers today.
Do unions have an effect ... yes. Unions end up supporting (protecting) many of the weakest membes, and keep them employed even when other teachers would prefere they leave.
The other major issue is the lacking of any accountability from parents. The people who have described teachers as prison guards are off base. From personal experience, I can assure you that when prisoners misbehave, the staff have the abilty to hold the prisoner accountable in a way that todays teacher can only dream of.
Until students at todays schools are taught the importance of an education, and receive support from their parents, the American educaton system is going to fail.
The 1960s was the begining of the end of limited economic opporunities for women. For a century, America had half of its best and brightest focused on just a couple of professions ... teaching and nursing. Since the 1960s, the opporunites for women have expended significantly each year, to the point women can enter virtually any profession.
A women's abiltiy to be employed in almost any job has resulted in compensation reality. Limit any groups abiltiy to market themselves, and society can obtain their services at a reduced price. That limiting factor disapears, and society has to pay fair market value. IMO ... this has issue has had a signficant impact on the cost and quality of teachers today.
Do unions have an effect ... yes. Unions end up supporting (protecting) many of the weakest membes, and keep them employed even when other teachers would prefere they leave.
The other major issue is the lacking of any accountability from parents. The people who have described teachers as prison guards are off base. From personal experience, I can assure you that when prisoners misbehave, the staff have the abilty to hold the prisoner accountable in a way that todays teacher can only dream of.
Until students at todays schools are taught the importance of an education, and receive support from their parents, the American educaton system is going to fail.
Why would I do something like that?
Seriously though, the link below shows the average salary of a teacher by state.
http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state
For a masters degree education, it hardly looks like a big incentive.
I'm not a teacher, but I don't understand some of the logic from people who say 'our teachers suck' and we 'overpay teachers'.
So we should pay them less? Is that how we're going to attract talent to that field?
Are there bad teachers? I'm sure there are. But maybe instead of us asking, "How do we get rid of these teachers?", we should be asking, "How did they get here in the first place?" Somebody hired these teachers. Did they hire them because they had no choice? A lack of candidates?
I can go on forever about this. It's a good subject to debate, especially since I'm a father of two. But I need more coffee and that shit is expensive in NY.
Quote from uptik2000:
Why would I do something like that?
Seriously though, the link below shows the average salary of a teacher by state.
http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state
For a masters degree education, it hardly looks like a big incentive.
I'm not a teacher, but I don't understand some of the logic from people who say 'our teachers suck' and we 'overpay teachers'.
So we should pay them less? Is that how we're going to attract talent to that field?
Are there bad teachers? I'm sure there are. But maybe instead of us asking, "How do we get rid of these teachers?", we should be asking, "How did they get here in the first place?" Somebody hired these teachers. Did they hire them because they had no choice? A lack of candidates?
I can go on forever about this. It's a good subject to debate, especially since I'm a father of two. But I need more coffee and that shit is expensive in NY.
Master's degree don't mean sh*t as most were form diploma mills. After getting a job with a school district, a teacher usually gets a higher degree by the easiest way possible to up the pay grade.
There is no other profession outside of government and government contract agencies that one gets an automatic pay increase on paper qualification and not on performance.
Many of these teachers were probably adequate when they were first hired. When they realize that they cannot be fired, many become irresponsible.
I have nothing against the teaching profession except for politically-connected unions that makes it impossible to get rid of the bad apples.
Who said you cannot be fired? Most teachers in the states do not have a union. Those states that do, you can fire a teacher, it just takes longer. In NY you could be observed by your Assistant Principal or higher (that means your principal as well as a host of other people from city, county or state).They can walk in to your classroom, demand a lesson plan and observe. If you are not following up your lesson plan or they do not like something they will give you a U rating (U - unsatisfactory). You get 3 of those and you get a U for a year which allows them to start termination process. That will take 2 semesters and most likely you will be out of a job. It can be done and is done on every day basis. That is why there is a 50% drop out rate of teachers in the first 5 years on the job. Until 2008 NYC needed teachers so badly that they were actively recruiting overseas and in other states as well as from other professions (fellows program). If you had a chemistry, physics or math degree you would have a job almost immediately.
BTW that salary of 100K+ you get after doing 22 years in the system. Have you seen a sane teacher with 22 years of experience teaching in NYC? I have not. Starting salary is around 50K which after taxes is $700 a week. A taxi driver in NY makes $200 a day - a job that requires a driver license and no education whatsoever. To get that $700 a teacher has to have 2 MA plus a host of bull shit courses and a couple hundred hours of classes every 5 years to keep the certificate. If you think it is easy money then you are welcome to join the ranks. Give the NYCDOE another year and they will be hiring again. Once you get the job, for 3 years you will work without tenure (sometimes up to 5 years) and you will be observed a minimmum of 6 times a year and will see supervisors in your classroom every day. Yes every day for a pop up observation where they stay 10 minutes to see what you are doing.
Now are there bad teachers, you bet, some a fucking horrible, but they are keeping their jobs because the administration is covering for them (they snitch, fuck the principal, are friends with AP, cousins of this or that big shot, or get with the program of just passing the students and making the school look good number wise). Union has nothing to do with who stays and who goes and for most part is a dues collecting organization that could not defend you if they tried.
Getting fired in NYC is almost impossible -- 88 out of 80,000.
http://www.teachersunionexposed.com/protecting.cfm
10 years of volunteering in classrooms and having a prior corporate job that dealt with unions makes me very anti-union. I can't imagine why any good teacher would be against pay for performance. Heck, in DC when Michelle Rhee wanted to go that route the union prevented its members from even voting on it for a long time. Unions continually block reforms in education, they dig in and resist. I know teachers who hate being a part of a union and are embarrassed by their representation.
Here is one sane guy who taught in NYC for over 30 years. He wrote "The Underground History of American Education"
Free online copy for anyone interested.
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm
I just outlined to you the process. Three U and you are ready to get booted out. It is a fact check with NYCDOE. Another fact 50% leave before the finish 5th year of working. Most have a 1 to 1 conversation with the AP where they are told that if they do not quit they will get fired. FYI firing means your certificate will be taken away and you will no longer be able to work as a teacher in your state. Many people prefer to quit. This way their lic. stays valid and they can look for a job in another county or state. That is the reason so few are fired. You would have to an imbecil to stay on the job for another semester or two and have your lic. taken away permanently. Also, any system will have a question on the application whethere you have been terminated from a teaching position. Now do you see why so few get "fired"? Or should I dumb it down more?