Teachers Unions & poor education in America

[piezoe]

Quote from Kevin Schmit:

What problems?

The percent of the variance in educational outcomes explained by ALL in-school effects (including teachers, class size, spend-per-pupil, etc.) is between 5% and 15%. Probably closer to 5%. Teachers and schools have very little influence on the end result.

Corrected for non-school cofactors, US education is among the best in the world. It's easy enough to run the numbers yourself. Relevant data are availble on www.pisa.oecd.org and www.census.gov.

You made one of my main points nicely, thank you. The causes of the problems do not lie with the teachers or the schools. And the data you refer to shows that to be the case.

You asked what the problems were, and I enumerated some of them for you. See my earlier post for a list.

But for causes you must look beyond teachers and schools. For that see the remainder of my post.

 

[piezoe]

Quote from hippie:

Good teachers work hard during the school year. They get summers off, plus the weeks off during holidays and semester breaks. A lot more days off than other other profession.

I tried teaching for a year when I first graduated from college. It was not the kids that made me decided against teaching. It was the what I heard form long-time teachers in the staff room that made realized that I do not want to associate with these people.

Most teachers seem apathetic, the discussion were more about their union or complaints about the kids. They would use up all their sick days but calling in sick even when that may not be the case.

Then I also see the best teachers leaving the profession. The kids were losing their Math teacher in one school and they said that was their best teacher. I met her and she was one of the few that seem knowledgeable and concerned about her students.

That was Boston in the early 1980's. Despite the lay-offs, I could had gotten into teaching as I had a degree in physics form a top university. I decided against it and got into software development.

It seems teachers unions are much more powerful and politically connected now than during my time. Talk to a parent in a not-so-great neighborhood and you get the story.

I have no doubt that everything you say is true, but the real issue here should not be teachers or their unions, or the schools, but how to get the best performance and results possible from the students. I don't see how the existence or non-existence of a teachers union can have much to do with that, because in my mind the problems lies with the students themselves and our basic philosophy of public education, which sadly, since the "Great Society", has moved toward treating all students the same and trying to force square pegs into round holes.

 

[hippie]

Quote from piezoe:

...The problems lies with the students themselves and our basic philosophy of public education, which sadly, since the "Great Society", has moved toward treating all students the same and trying to force square pegs into round holes.

You are right on this point: The "Great Society" dogma that treats all the same is definitely a problems for the schools, teachers, students and parents.

 

[DHOHHI]

Quote from piezoe:

Exactly. People who have never taught in the public schools are often unfamiliar with just how hard teachers do work. I can't say from personal experience, but I know some teachers, and they work damn hard, many more hours than meets the eye.

I volunteer at an inner city high poverty elementary school. It's eye opening to see the range of issues the teachers deal with. Kids who are ADD, ADHD, angry/acting out, malnourished, lacking in sleep from the night before, disinterested, etc. You can't blame the kids -- they're a product of their environment. Behavioral issues in class detract from teaching and require interventions.

I do math tutoring and I see 4th grade kids who can't add and subtract without using their fingers to count on. Each year they get further and further behind.

Biggest issue in these kinds of schools is a lack of parental involvement. Some do not have time if they're working 2 jobs. Sadly, others just don't see very interested in how their kids are doing. Attendance at parent teacher conferences leaves a bit top be desired from what teachers tell me.

No easy solutions. I admire the effort of the teachers I interact with. But I don't support teachers being able to retire after 25 years though. Unsustainable financially long term.

 

[saxon22]

Quote from 1prometheus:

I have yet to see the superman movie, yet I have heard it ignores the real issue:

The problem is the students, not the schools.

http://www.amazon.com/Bad-Students-Not-Schools/dp/141281345X



If you replaced the student population at these problem schools with North Asians, Northern Europeans, or Jews, and what do you know,
the schools would suddenly not be "problems" anymore.

This is the elephant in the room.

Funny fact but north Asians would be .... Russians. LOL
However, for the argument's sake let's replace them with who you wanted to include had you possessed map skills of an average 4th grader, namely the Chinese. Hate to be the bearer of bad news but many Chinese are as dumb as fuck and robot like to boot.
Northern Europeans - last time they came to th USA in great numbers was 2 centuries ago. How they would do in the American system of education is highly speculative since they are NOT present IN IT!
Jews - I gues you have not work in a Yeshiva lately. I have never seen more unruly, unpleasant, bunch of brats and educationally speaking, I have been around the block.

 

[piezoe]

Quote from DHOHHI:

I volunteer at an inner city high poverty elementary school. It's eye opening to see the range of issues the teachers deal with. Kids who are ADD, ADHD, angry/acting out, malnourished, lacking in sleep from the night before, disinterested, etc. You can't blame the kids -- they're a product of their environment. Behavioral issues in class detract from teaching and require interventions.

I do math tutoring and I see 4th grade kids who can't add and subtract without using their fingers to count on. Each year they get further and further behind.

Biggest issue in these kinds of schools is a lack of parental involvement. Some do not have time if they're working 2 jobs. Sadly, others just don't see very interested in how their kids are doing. Attendance at parent teacher conferences leaves a bit top be desired from what teachers tell me.

No easy solutions. I admire the effort of the teachers I interact with. But I don't support teachers being able to retire after 25 years though. Unsustainable financially long term.

Thank you for volunteering. The challenges faced by teachers in your school are daunting. What to do about it? That is the question. Can we expect the schools alone to compensate for the deficiencies in these kids? I don't see how. And as you say, you can't blame he kids. But what to do?

 

[zdreg]

Hopefully you are not teaching English writing.

"I have never seen more unruly, unpleasant, bunch of brats and educationally speaking, I have been around the block."

Did you ever learn grammar? Your sentence is a disgrace.

This thread is about academic achievement. Would you like to compare
the academic achievements of Yeshiva students vs, students who come from a Black ghetto?

 

[saxon22]

Quote from zdreg:

Hopefully you are not teaching English writing.

"I have never seen more unruly, unpleasant, bunch of brats and educationally speaking, I have been around the block."

Did you ever learn grammar? Your sentence is a disgrace.

This thread is about academic achievement. Would you like to compare
the academic achievements of Yeshiva students vs, students who come from a Black ghetto?

No I have never gathered anough desperation to teach English composition. I find it boring and uninteresting.

As for the sentence you are pointing to: ""I have never seen more unruly, unpleasant, bunch of brats and educationally speaking, I have been around the block." There is nothing wrong with it. While it is unorthodox in its construction, it is correct. You will learn that particular sentence structure later in your high school journey, assuming you have not dropped out already.

 

[uptik2000]

Scary that a lot of people posting think that $80k is a big salary and that $40k pension is living the high life.
Where do you people live?

 

[hippie]

Quote from uptik2000:

Scary that a lot of people posting think that $80k is a big salary and that $40k pension is living the high life.
Where do you people live?

Any amount is too much for the incompetent or irresponsible. And the system cannot get rid of them due to their powerful politically-connected unions.