Teachers Unions & poor education in America

[hippie]

Quote from piezoe:

So you have figured it all out, and it turned out to be very simple: hire only good teachers and everything will be fine.

Everything would a lot better by getting rid of the bad teachers. Bad teachers is the big problem; then there is the disruptive students who can't or won't learn, but allowed to stay in class with those who do want to learn.

 

[zdreg]

Quote from chartman:

The kids have not gotten dumber. In fact kids are smarter today because of being exposed to more information. The school system and parenting have changed.

I agree. the school system has changed. one change is that the teachers are not allowed to discipline their students properly. increasing salaries cannot improve the educational achievement of students because the school system is dysfunctional. in that case l cut their salaries and save the taxpayer's money.

parenting has declined because mothers are at work and are not at home to greet them. I suppose students were better before president clinton ended welfare as we know it. the welfare mothers were at the door to greet their children after school.

I responded to your your previous lengthy post debunking particularly that notion that teacher salaries are negotiated in a free market. you have been silent because you could not provide a decent rebuttal.

 

[nutmeg]

Quote from chartman:

The kids have not gotten dumber. In fact kids are smarter today because of being exposed to more information. The school system and parenting have changed.

In my travels I asked around a few career teachers & prof's "Are kids dumber than years past?" The consenus: Kids are as smart as in the past, there's just not as many.

 

[chartman]

Quote from zdreg:

I responded to your your previous lengthy post debunking particularly that notion that teacher salaries are negotiated in a free market. you have been silent because you could not provide a decent rebuttal.

I really did not see any reason to response since it was obvious you did not know what you were talking about. I served on the local school board for twelve years. In my state about 90% of the teacher's salary comes from the state. Each local school system negotiates a supplement to the salary scale. That amount is negotiated within the bounds of the amount of money in the school budget the local city/county has allocated to the school system. It is not an unlimited amount. In this locality, as I am sure like elsewhere, there are some more affluent communities that have the financial ability to offer more compensation which attracts teachers from those school systems that cannot compete. The only savior to most school systems, regardless of the perception, there is an abundant of certified teachers, sometimes several hundreds, seeking employment for every open position. Except for in the crime infested large cities where teaching school is like going into a combat zone, the negotiation of teacher's salaries are similiar to the private sector. Both sides have to compromise within limitations. Contrary to what some people believes, unions represents only a small percentage of the teachers in this country. Most teachers are represented by their local professional organization. The teacher marketplace is a free market in that teachers are free to go to a more rewarding position with another school system that have the financial resources to offer more compensation while all school systems, except for large cities, enjoys the luxury of having an oversupply of certified teachers. For those locations, such as large cities, that may have a less desirable working environment, there are other factors that comes into the negotiation. Just an added comment concerning teachers in general. There was a time not too far in the past where the teaching profession was held in esteem. This is no longer true. If the parents have no respect for teachers how can we expect their children to. Society reaps what we sow.

 

[zdreg]

personal insults do not clear the air but are the voice of the weak who cannot back their positions.

obviously there is not an unlimited amount.
more obvious is that you do not understand the concept of free markets.
teacher salaries in the public sectors are determined by politicians who are in hock to the unions for their positions. if it was a free market the supply of willing teachers would lower salaries, it doesn't happen.

 

[chartman]

Quote from zdreg:

personal insults do not clear the air but are the voice of the weak who cannot back their positions.

There is nothing personal. I have replied to your comment requesting a rebuttal to an issue which was obvious you are not familiar.

Your understanding of a free market must be where one party is at the mercy of a dominant party. In a free market both parties are equal in the negotiation and if one party do not like the settlement they are free to leave. That is the way it works with teachers. School systems loses teachers every year due to other systems offering better compensation. Teachers signs a new individual contract every year with their school system. School systems can dismiss a teacher with cause at anytime for a violation of the contract terms. School systems are in competition with other school systems, both public and private, for the better teachers.

 

[IanMacQuaide]

Probably the most destructive power within our communities, and our nation, is our "mind chatter" we carry on throughout our day, as well as what we hear from those around us.
"The rich get richer blah blah blah..."
"The "MAN" keep me down"...etc..
"I can't seem to get ahead...etc.."
As airy-fairy as it might seem, I wish we could have classes in our grade schools to teach us to think, and believe, that we can accomplish anything we wish.

We usually get exactly what we concentrate on.
Good or bad.

 

[zdreg]

Quote from chartman:

There is nothing personal. I have replied to your comment requesting a rebuttal to an issue which was obvious you are not familiar.

your statement is obviously untrue.my statements show that I am familiar with the way public employees are compensated. I am not sure if your statement is even your opinion but a disingenuous way to justify your position. your belated disclosure of your involvement in the education system does nothing to burnish your remarks.

you haven't disclosed whether you have relatives in a professional capacity in the education system.

 

[zdreg]

Quote from chartman:

There is nothing personal. I have replied to your comment requesting a rebuttal to an issue which was obvious you are not familiar.

Your understanding of a free market must be where one party is at the mercy of a dominant party. In a free market both parties are equal in the negotiation and if one party do not like the settlement they are free to leave. That is the way it works with teachers. School systems loses teachers every year due to other systems offering better compensation. Teachers signs a new individual contract every year with their school system. School systems can dismiss a teacher with cause at anytime for a violation of the contract terms. School systems are in competition with other school systems, both public and private, for the better teachers.

"School systems can dismiss a teacher with cause at anytime for a violation of the contract terms. "


can and do are two incompatible words when it comes to teachers. unions play the major role why teachers are not fired.

why don't you supply the figures for the % of teachers who are denied tenure or who are fired in any given year?

 

[Rehoboth]

My mother was a superintendent of a pretty large school system. I have never seen someone work so hard and love it so much. But she managed to turn it around. The biggest obstacles to a successful school system were the following:

Everyone is hard to fire. The documentation has to be perfect to fire someone, and most people cant create court worthy documents. Otherwise its sue sue sue. Blame the union for this one.

The generation after the baby-boomers went for the money. A huge amount of the intelligent baby boomer generation went into teaching/public sector. They were inspired by Kennedy/Teach for America etc...The next generation went into finance, computers and other high money fields.

This leads to the problem of Boomer generation teachers are getting old an apathetic. Which leads back to the first problem.

Teaching to the test causes so many problems on so many levels. It creates a lack of intuitive think.

Schools cant keep up with technology. Any one out there still on C64?

Too much Admin time is wasted appeasing political people and agendas.

I havent even started on the curriculum, but there is a reason the IB program is far superior to the AP program.