Tax relief measures just because stock market is down. Enough of this foolishness!!!!!

[zdave83]

Because it's bad signalling behavior. It suggests Mommy will always be there. It enables a calcification of any sort of danger response mechanism ......

That all sounds good until lots of small businesses have to close, and cause lots of pain to laid off employees and their families. And for what? It would be because of an exogenous event, not a normal business cycle. I can't think of a good reason not to help people out under those conditions. After all ... we print money for lots of other reasons ... at least that would be one with a humane outcome.

I'm thinking of something like what FEMA does for individuals and businesses after a hurricane. Certainly wouldn't want to just tell those people to work on their fight-or-flight skills.

 

[morganist]

((to D08)) Indeed -- a total fiction (if broadly held -- even in the orthodox, non-Morganist world )...
• There is no mathematical proof of such a policy-driven outcome.
• Equations/models which purport to show such an outcome eventually come around to a singular-but-startlingly-unsupported assumption: that the rate of growth in GDP must exceed the rate of growth of the population, such that per-capita GDP itself grows.
• If per-capita GDP remains static in an at-equilibrium economy, then disaster is declared, completely ignoring the fact that the economy was at equilibrium.
• Much of Europe has seen a population decline for the last generation or so. Those economies where the population changes were greater than GDP changes (e.g., Germany, England) were seen as relatively successful. Those economies where the population changes were less than GDP changes were seen as "problematic" (PIIGS: Portulgal, Italy, Ireland, Greece, Spain).

You seem to be arguing a different point. My claim is that when the level of GDP falls from the previous year (negative growth) it becomes harder to make debt repayments and defaults occur. Your argument seems to be GDP doesn't have to rise above the population rate. My argument is different in that it makes monetary growth a requirement to enable the repayment of outstanding debts, if monetary output declines (a recession) it becomes much harder to repay debts. This is what is important to achieve, preferably with low rates of inflation. The increased rate in monetary output has to be in line with the increased rate of production output to avoid inflation, however it would stop debt defaults if monetary output increased on its own but you would most likely have inflation.

 

[schizo]

what if economic targets unrealistic?
recession is a part of the economic cycle
when you try to cancel recession you get what happened yesterday
is money printing market intervention? because it all will be financed with QE
do you believe all taxes must be cancelled and all government expenditures financed by money printing?
don't you think money printing is also tax?

Good point!

The stock market went through the roof for the last 11 years and yet the real economy hasn't fared all that well or, at least, it hasn't benefited as much. What's even worse is that Trump bases his economic policy on the strength of the stock market. From the 2009 low, the market gained over 400%. We've since dropped nearly 20% from the ATH and yet we're already whining like babies as if the world's coming to an end.

 

[S2007S]

Why do people believe everything is all about the markets? There is a real economy, businesses, employees and families out there. If it turns out they truly need assistance to get thru this, why is putting a plan in place to help them a bad thing?

Stop stop stop...truly need assistance? Whose fault is that? Tell them to stop buying $14 mixed drinks and a new $1200 phone every year. Instead of eating out 8 days a week maybe eat at home 7 days a week....so we need to assist those that do not know the value of a dollar??? The people who spend aimlessly on consuming garbage they dont need. There is a heavy statistic that 1/2 of Americans live mostly paycheck to paycheck....I'm tired of giving people.... the economy and especially the markets free passes. You say why do we believe it's about the markets??? Because every single fuxking damn time markets collapse, wait I mean take a dip after a 10 hear old bull market run, people go into panic mode, wallstreet starts to cry like a little bitch and the fed comes to the rescue with huge bailout packages and free trillions. It is all about the markets and free money to bailout starving industries that if taken the correct measures, they could withstand panic collapse like this. This just proves that our economy, our world and our people have absolutely no plan in place for mass hysteria. I'm nearly 999999999% sure the fed and the rest of the higher ups will give out as much money and freebies as they can to once again prop up the markets.

 

[schizo]

Stop stop stop...truly need assistance? Whose fault is that? Tell them to stop buying $14 mixed drinks and a new $1200 phone every year. Instead of eating out 8 days a week maybe eat at home 7 days a week....so we need to assist those that do not know the value of a dollar??? The people who spend aimlessly on consuming garbage they dont need. There is a heavy statistic that 1/2 of Americans live mostly paycheck to paycheck....I'm tired of giving people.... the economy and especially the markets free passes. You say why do we believe it's about the markets??? Because every single fuxking damn time markets collapse, wait I mean take a dip after a 10 hear old bull market run, people go into panic mode, wallstreet starts to cry like a little bitch and the fed comes to the rescue with huge bailout packages and free trillions. It is all about the markets and free money to bailout starving industries that if taken the correct measures, they could withstand panic collapse like this. This just proves that our economy, our world and our people have absolutely no plan in place for mass hysteria. I'm nearly 999999999% sure the fed and the rest of the higher ups will give out as much money and freebies as they can to once again prop up the markets.

Are you out of your friggin' mind? We're not talking about Buddhist monks here. We're talking about one of the most spoiled morons of all time, eg. "Proudly Made in America" folks.

 

[zdave83]

1) Tell them to stop buying $14 mixed drinks and a new $1200 phone every year. Instead of eating out 8 days a week maybe eat at home 7 days a week.
2) ... every single ... time markets collapse, wait I mean take a dip after a 10 hear old bull market run, people go into panic mode, wallstreet starts to cry like a little ... and the fed comes to the rescue with huge bailout packages and free trillions.

1) Not sure who "them" are. There are certainly a lot of people with spending habits like that. There are a lot more people who don't, and struggle to care for their families.
2) I share your concern that the economy should be allowed to cycle normally without the Fed constantly reacting to every dip.

But there's nothing "normal" about what guarding from this virus is doing to economies around the world ... and possibly to the US economy in the near future. A pandemic is not, and never has been, part of a normal business cycle. IMHO ... it is a lot more like a hurricane ... an exogenous natural event. Saying that the federal government shouldn't do anything to help is analogous to defunding FEMA, and telling hurricane victims that they need to "stop buying $14 mixed drinks and a new $1200 phone every year. Instead of eating out 8 days a week maybe eat at home 7 days a week." ...... and instead focus on improving their fight-or-flight skills.

A plan like that may not be needed ... hope not. We'll find out soon, and I don't see anything wrong with creating plans to respond to worst case scenarios rather than being caught flat footed.

 

[Cuddles]

1) Not sure who "them" are. There are certainly a lot of people with spending habits like that. There are a lot more people who don't, and struggle to care for their families.
2) I share your concern that the economy should be allowed to cycle normally without the Fed constantly reacting to every dip.

But there's nothing "normal" about what guarding from this virus is doing to economies around the world ... and possibly to the US economy in the near future. A pandemic is not, and never has been, part of a normal business cycle. IMHO ... it is a lot more like a hurricane ... an exogenous natural event. Saying that the federal government shouldn't do anything to help is analogous to defunding FEMA, and telling hurricane victims that they need to "stop buying $14 mixed drinks and a new $1200 phone every year. Instead of eating out 8 days a week maybe eat at home 7 days a week." ...... and instead focus on improving their fight-or-flight skills.

A plan like that may not be needed ... hope not. We'll find out soon, and I don't see anything wrong with creating plans to respond to worst case scenarios rather than being caught flat footed.

point is, corporate welfare should not be the norm in anticipation for events such as these....and the people who vote those policies in place will never learn as long as you feed them a scapegoat to blame

 

[zdave83]

View attachment 221670

point is, corporate welfare should not be the norm ...... the people who vote those policies in place will never learn ......

Well, no. My post, which you quoted, was all about helping individuals and small businesses in a manner similar to how FEMA helps them following a natural disaster. And, offering the thought that this virus is more like a natural disaster than just a normal market, or economic, dip.

What does that have to do with "corporate welfare" and "people who vote those policies in place will never learn"?

 

[tommcginnis]

That all sounds good until lots of small businesses have to close, and cause lots of pain to laid off employees and their families. And for what? It would be because of an exogenous event, not a normal business cycle. I can't think of a good reason not to help people out under those conditions. After all ... we print money for lots of other reasons ... at least that would be one with a humane outcome.

I'm thinking of something like what FEMA does for individuals and businesses after a hurricane. Certainly wouldn't want to just tell those people to work on their fight-or-flight skills.

business closures: you are certainly able to give your dollars to anyone you wish, but when you seek to command others to move their capital that way (via tax/wealth shifts), that's stealing, and has a long history of grotesque inefficiency. You "can't think of a good reason"? Well, ....

exogenous events: this is *Life* -- you need to plan for exogenous events, and act responsibly. Driving a curvy mountain road at night is easy, as you can use both lanes with ease. Drive that same road during the daytime (without the cue on oncoming headlights to lend ample warning), and you are restricted to staying in your lane around blind corners, because you don't know if an exogenous event (an oncoming truck) is going to appear POOF! right in front of you. Life happens, and your inability to plan for future events does not create an emergency on my part.

"what FEMA does for individuals and businesses": is a prime example of a government teat being abused. FEMA is a coordination agency, meant for line duties, not for staff. FEMA didn't even exist until 1979. FEMA carries no "enabling statute" directing it to rush in and *fund* recovery from disasters -- the examples you are thinking of are *mission*creep* from Hurricane Andrew (1992) and became *habit* following Hurricane Katrina (2005). These things require still require individual Congressional acts. But it is a vast wealth shift, as flood and storm insurance has *disappeared* throughout the southern U.S. coastline, as people now declare "I don't need insurance! I have FEMA!" And then moan loudly when the storm hits. (And to be regionally fair, the same moaning was undertaken throughout the Northeast when Hurricane/Superstorm Sandy took out the coastline from Philly to Boston....)

This is NOT responsible behavior, and is NOT healthy -- it is "Hey! Where is my aid!?!?" handout-grubbing behavior. Now again, there is nothing to say that you can't go and give to some charitable account or charitable truckload or charitable construction effort.... but my parents' last place in Connecticut was on a beach on which my father had spent played as a kid, that I had play on as a kid, and that my own kids had played upon, in a house that appears in photos of all three generations. (That's a LOT of storms in there...) My parents lived there for 20 years, and replaced their back porch 4-5 times, from waves washing the prior one away. (Do you wonder if they were insured for that?) Superstorm Sandy did what all the others (over a century) could not: it floated their house off its foundation: total loss. The house there now is on 12"x12" timbers standing 10' above the highwater mark.

Plan ahead, or fail to plan. But a lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on taxpayers' part.

 

[S2007S]

Cramer thinks dow is headed to 2018 lows !!!!!

I'm thinking that and a drop below 20000




https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/11/cra...ter-dow-revisits-christmas-eve-2018-lows.html