I tape read any cotton pickin thing that moves and that gives me price and volume. charts, intraday and otherwise. It makes no difference to me if NQ, ES, YG, NYSE stocks, Nasdaq. But then my style of tape reading is different than what I suppose might be called "contemporary tape reading or traditional tape reading."
TAPE READING (chat room cont.)
- Thread starter shortseller
- Start date
Can some one explain what happened with LEND at 11:41 this morning.
It was trading/printing 1 to 6 lot trades in the 46.60 area; then a trade of 100 lots @ 44.70 and then right back to 46.60
would this be a cross or someone mistakenly offering 100 lots at the wrong price?
Would such a move trigger stops?
It was trading/printing 1 to 6 lot trades in the 46.60 area; then a trade of 100 lots @ 44.70 and then right back to 46.60
would this be a cross or someone mistakenly offering 100 lots at the wrong price?
Would such a move trigger stops?
Well I must say that judging by Mav's posts earlier in this thread (i got till page 20ish), what I've been taught at SwiftTrade has been totally opposite what he's saying. If we see a big bid one level below the inside, we're told to bid at the inside, but not with the big size. Could this be because we're usually trading PFE and GE which trade 20 million+?
Hi all,
I don't know how active this thread still is but i think it has been great!
I have a couple of questions for you more experienced guys (Maveric, you still around?)
If you see size on the offer that you think is a spoof firstly what clues do you look for that this could be pulled? Secondly if you are going to buy into size on the offer would you lift it or wait in the bid hoping to get filled?
I've started trading the Bund at a prop firm and the amount of flipping of orders is crazy (i.e pulling a big offer and flipping it onto the bid which panics people and pushes the market a few ticks) i'm sure you know of Paul Rotter, he pretty much owns the Bund futures by playing these games and want to learn as many tips as I can off of people about how to suvive in these markets
Thanks!
Tom
I don't know how active this thread still is but i think it has been great!
I have a couple of questions for you more experienced guys (Maveric, you still around?)
If you see size on the offer that you think is a spoof firstly what clues do you look for that this could be pulled? Secondly if you are going to buy into size on the offer would you lift it or wait in the bid hoping to get filled?
I've started trading the Bund at a prop firm and the amount of flipping of orders is crazy (i.e pulling a big offer and flipping it onto the bid which panics people and pushes the market a few ticks) i'm sure you know of Paul Rotter, he pretty much owns the Bund futures by playing these games and want to learn as many tips as I can off of people about how to suvive in these markets
Thanks!
Tom
It seems like I missed the action...
Mav, Don... why do you guys try explaining things to people who won't get a clue...
If they had the qualia to understand what you really mean to say, they would have already. By the way some are asking questions or assumingly commenting on this topic, they won't adjust to the ever-changing markets.
All this talk is like sooo... 12 years ago...
WELL... back into hiding....
Mav, Don... why do you guys try explaining things to people who won't get a clue...
If they had the qualia to understand what you really mean to say, they would have already. By the way some are asking questions or assumingly commenting on this topic, they won't adjust to the ever-changing markets.
All this talk is like sooo... 12 years ago...
WELL... back into hiding....
All you have to do is pay attention to the stocks, I used to play that horeshit game too of trying to step in front of size levels usually it will bounce it a couple times to try to fool you so you actually make money, then they screw you big time, GE is a great stock to pay attention to when it is moving towards size, just try to get in on the buyign when you see the level starting to snap easy ticks, I used to think the total opposite cause of swifts teaching this thread actually taught me otherwise and you make way more money buying into size because usually it will atleast make a run at it so you can get out for a small profit or scratch the trade, and when it snaps everyone is panicking giving you a buffer zone to allow the trade to run for a bit.
Tape reading is different for most markets but the basic concept is the same. Just looking at the tape alone is a tough way to make a living. If you accompany it with a simple chart such as a 1 or 5 minute timem frame it works a lot better. If you are trading NYSE for example and you just watch the spec quotes and prints you will have an extremely hard time. In many instances the third markets lead the nyse and vice versa. Now with programs and VWAP pricing thrown into the mix it makes it even harder to read the tape. And it will only get harder in the future.
Good Readings!!!!
Good Readings!!!!
I have read this thread from beginning to end and the posts by Maverick are very insightful. I do have a couple of questions and some topics for discussion.
Questions:
1. I tend to conclude that from Mavericks posts, spotting the aggressive buyer/seller (thus also, going with the specialist) is the essence of making profit by tape reading. What if someone is just to scalp? Finding a few chasers, go with the aggressive seller, and make a few pennies from the ride? Though I know what Maverick would say: an aggressive seller can be there from seconds to hours..and that's understandable, though from a scalping point of view, the ones that tend to last more than a minute or so...wouldn't that be position trading?
By the way, I think what shortseller meant by getting infront of size is when an aggressive seller is present so maybe a chaser is taking place...I don't think anyone would just get infront of size just because size is present, thought if multiple size appeared on the offer, it could mean the temporary interest/urgency is within the sellers...for all we know, it can be a headfake, delayed communication between specialist and floor broker, etc...
1. I also tend to include from Mavericks posts that spotting the institutional buyer/seller is the key to profits by reading tape. So thinking like an institutional buyer/seller naturally follows. Thus, I have some questions:
I recall Maverick saying institutional sizes often do not come in round numbers. I do not understand this as I thought they do come in evens, quarters?
-Instituions often buy/sell stock at these figures. Institutions care about opportunity cost and thus it is more important to get the order filled than saving a few pennies here and there.
I also recall that the institutional buyer/seller would not tell the specialist the entire amount he needs to acquire/sell. He would give the specialist incremental orders up to that amount instead. Often he feeds specialist orders continously throughout the day, and in turn the specialist has to ask the floor broker if more size is on the way... this in turn raises a question....how do you know if it's the end of the buyer/seller and not the middle or the beginning? Most orders from institutions are even figures....1 million, 500k to buy/sell, etc.... a buyer doesn't necessarily have to stop at an odd order at the end of the continous prints at the same prices....
I also learned that when a large order has been filled/sold, the instituional buyer/seller takes a break to let volume regenerate a little and then start again. Though institutional buyers/seller would not care about the price drop a little bit, usually, if it's a buy order, the specialist would not let the price drop too low if it's at the end of the order because think about it. The buyer would be pissed if he just bought a bunch of stock at 50.25 and now the stock is at 49.50....
Participation of the clean up print:
usually the institutional buyer/seller would not care to let the specialist know if it's the end of an order...so how do you know the buyer stops? It would be weird for an order to be something like....500,079 shares....and if the specialist does see an opportunity, and he carries some for himself as he know it's the end of the order and a reversal will happen, how does he take the chance?
A typical pattern that the Specialist continues to exhibit when working a large order.
Lets say the Specialist in ANN receives an order to buy 50,000 shares at the market, and he doesn't have a natural seller
1. Usually he'll start by flashing a decent bid of about 5,000 shares. (It's a strong bid, but not enough to scare anyone away.)
2. If he gets some nibbles, he might up the ante and show 10,000 shares.
If I was an institutional seller of ANN, I'd be more likely to react to a real bid than a tiny bid. That's what the Specialist is looking for
But if he can't lure one in, he'll have to just pick away, which means buying at the offers (Not many small orders will feel the need to sell 500 shares into such a strong bid).
So the stock moves up slightly as different offers are taken. 5000 shares/50,000 shares has been accumulated. What does he do next?
If he's accumulated 5,000 shares already
-Does he sit tight with a 5,000 share bid at the original level?
-Does he replace with bid with a higher 2,000 share bid?
-Does he remove the bid altogether to make it seem like there's no support?
Making the stock look weak is a common strategy.
Instead of dropping the bid, it's actually more effective sometimes to show a weak bid, of say 100 or 200 shares, as well as a strong offer one cent above it making it look like the stock is ready to fall. Not a bad way to attract sellers.
-Does the Specialist in your stock do this?
-How many times?
-What happened when sellers took out the weak bid?
-Where was the next bid?
Where was stock being printed? Was it 5 cents below the weak bid? 10 cents?
Some specialists will use the same amount every time.
And unless the stock has just run up a lot already, he won't let the stock fall too much - remember his primary goal is to fill the order, not to get too cute about it's execution.
He's still got more stock to buy, so he'll take all those panic sell orders and execute them at the same price.
Eventually if there's no supply, the stock will move up.
Does the Specialist use another 5,000 share bid, but up higher? Kind of obvious, huh? How about 3,400 shares - looks more like a stray order. Another 10,000 shares accumulated, time for the old 'weak bid' trick again. You get the point.
Questions:
1. I tend to conclude that from Mavericks posts, spotting the aggressive buyer/seller (thus also, going with the specialist) is the essence of making profit by tape reading. What if someone is just to scalp? Finding a few chasers, go with the aggressive seller, and make a few pennies from the ride? Though I know what Maverick would say: an aggressive seller can be there from seconds to hours..and that's understandable, though from a scalping point of view, the ones that tend to last more than a minute or so...wouldn't that be position trading?
By the way, I think what shortseller meant by getting infront of size is when an aggressive seller is present so maybe a chaser is taking place...I don't think anyone would just get infront of size just because size is present, thought if multiple size appeared on the offer, it could mean the temporary interest/urgency is within the sellers...for all we know, it can be a headfake, delayed communication between specialist and floor broker, etc...
1. I also tend to include from Mavericks posts that spotting the institutional buyer/seller is the key to profits by reading tape. So thinking like an institutional buyer/seller naturally follows. Thus, I have some questions:
I recall Maverick saying institutional sizes often do not come in round numbers. I do not understand this as I thought they do come in evens, quarters?
-Instituions often buy/sell stock at these figures. Institutions care about opportunity cost and thus it is more important to get the order filled than saving a few pennies here and there.
I also recall that the institutional buyer/seller would not tell the specialist the entire amount he needs to acquire/sell. He would give the specialist incremental orders up to that amount instead. Often he feeds specialist orders continously throughout the day, and in turn the specialist has to ask the floor broker if more size is on the way... this in turn raises a question....how do you know if it's the end of the buyer/seller and not the middle or the beginning? Most orders from institutions are even figures....1 million, 500k to buy/sell, etc.... a buyer doesn't necessarily have to stop at an odd order at the end of the continous prints at the same prices....
I also learned that when a large order has been filled/sold, the instituional buyer/seller takes a break to let volume regenerate a little and then start again. Though institutional buyers/seller would not care about the price drop a little bit, usually, if it's a buy order, the specialist would not let the price drop too low if it's at the end of the order because think about it. The buyer would be pissed if he just bought a bunch of stock at 50.25 and now the stock is at 49.50....
Participation of the clean up print:
usually the institutional buyer/seller would not care to let the specialist know if it's the end of an order...so how do you know the buyer stops? It would be weird for an order to be something like....500,079 shares....and if the specialist does see an opportunity, and he carries some for himself as he know it's the end of the order and a reversal will happen, how does he take the chance?
A typical pattern that the Specialist continues to exhibit when working a large order.
Lets say the Specialist in ANN receives an order to buy 50,000 shares at the market, and he doesn't have a natural seller
1. Usually he'll start by flashing a decent bid of about 5,000 shares. (It's a strong bid, but not enough to scare anyone away.)
2. If he gets some nibbles, he might up the ante and show 10,000 shares.
If I was an institutional seller of ANN, I'd be more likely to react to a real bid than a tiny bid. That's what the Specialist is looking for
But if he can't lure one in, he'll have to just pick away, which means buying at the offers (Not many small orders will feel the need to sell 500 shares into such a strong bid).
So the stock moves up slightly as different offers are taken. 5000 shares/50,000 shares has been accumulated. What does he do next?
If he's accumulated 5,000 shares already
-Does he sit tight with a 5,000 share bid at the original level?
-Does he replace with bid with a higher 2,000 share bid?
-Does he remove the bid altogether to make it seem like there's no support?
Making the stock look weak is a common strategy.
Instead of dropping the bid, it's actually more effective sometimes to show a weak bid, of say 100 or 200 shares, as well as a strong offer one cent above it making it look like the stock is ready to fall. Not a bad way to attract sellers.
-Does the Specialist in your stock do this?
-How many times?
-What happened when sellers took out the weak bid?
-Where was the next bid?
Where was stock being printed? Was it 5 cents below the weak bid? 10 cents?
Some specialists will use the same amount every time.
And unless the stock has just run up a lot already, he won't let the stock fall too much - remember his primary goal is to fill the order, not to get too cute about it's execution.
He's still got more stock to buy, so he'll take all those panic sell orders and execute them at the same price.
Eventually if there's no supply, the stock will move up.
Does the Specialist use another 5,000 share bid, but up higher? Kind of obvious, huh? How about 3,400 shares - looks more like a stray order. Another 10,000 shares accumulated, time for the old 'weak bid' trick again. You get the point.
You should have credited "Deeman" for alot of your post. You DID copy and paste his stuff, correct?
Deeman! Yes, now I remember that is his username. I did get many ideas from him and the section about common order fill process was his idea. I thought I'd share it in conjunction of this thread as many ideas from Marv and Deeman are interrelated.