Swiss likely to approve prescription heroin

Which system is more civilized?

  • The U.S. way: Strict prohibition laws & hard time!

    Votes: 8 22.9%
  • The Swiss way: YOU decide what goes into your own body, not the government.

    Votes: 27 77.1%

  • Total voters
    35
Quote from CaptainObvious:

Your comparisons are absurd. Rationalize all you want if it makes you feel better.
I learned a long time ago to not waste my time trying to help and or educate those that don't want it. Bye!

You say the comparisons are absurd, but don't give any reasoning to support your claim.

You accuse me of rationalizing. A rationalization is when someone takes valid premises and then uses an inconsistent chain of logic to try to reach their preferred conclusion, rather than using consistent logic and accepting the conclusion that flows from it (even if they initially disagreed with that conclusion). If I am rationalizing then it should be a simple matter for you to point out the flaw in my logic. After all, if you could demonstrate through facts, evidence, and reasoning that criminalization was a superior approach, it would be absurd for me not to accept your proof. Yet once again you don't support your contentious assertion.

You make an invalid assumption that I am not interested in being educated, based on no evidence at all - just the fact that I disagree with you about something.

There are various terms used to describe the kind of behaviour you are displaying - none of them very flattering.
 
Quote from Cutten:

I don't think anyone has disputed that point. I am pretty sure the workers at Swiss treatment centers are well aware of the harmful impact of drug addiction, as is every single person on this thread who has supported drug decriminalisation.

What is under dispute are two simple points - is the mere usage of drugs (absent any other factors) morally wrong, does it intrinsically harm others or violate their rights? And what is the justification and rationale for imprisoning drug users, given that there are proven alternatives which have been tried and succeeded far better at reducing the social and individual problems that drugs can cause.

As far as I can tell, no one has yet given a reason why drug use per se is immoral. Nor has anyone given evidence that the criminalisation approach produces better overall results for society and individuals than the medical/rehabilitation approach. As soon as someone deigns to at least *try* to give reasons or evidence for either of those contentions, then there will be a debate worth having. So far no one has done that, all they have done is make points that *no one disputes*, but which in no way support the position of criminalising drugs.

Proponents of criminalisation would do well to consider the analogy to alcohol and smoking. Booze and smoking destroy lives. Serious alcohol addicts especially can be violent, anti-social, pose risks to others etc. Yet the policy almost all societies have adopted is to treat and if necessary jail those who, as a result of alcohol use, indulge in behaviour *harmful or extremely dangerous to others* (i.e. criminal); whilst at the same time not criminalising those alcohol users who do not commit crimes against innocent people. A drinker who argues at home when drunk is not put in jail, and no one seriously suggests they should be. A drinker who turns that argument into domestic battery is put in jail, as they should be. Now, substitute "alcohol" for "heroin" or whatever other drug you want, and substitute "drinking" and "drinker" for "injecting" and "drug user", and then explain why the arguments are any different?

That's the challenge for those who wants drugs illegal and users banged up for years. What is it about use of drug X that means criminalisation is justified morally, and preferable social policy, compared to drug Y? It can't be loss of life, since so many die from cigarettes and alcohol. It can't be social consequences, since the consequences of the war on drugs are demonstrably far worse than the consequences of a Swiss-style liberal drug regime. So tell us - what is it?

At least people like Osama bin Laden and the Saudis are morally and logically consistent - they want *all* booze, smoking, drugs banned. That is a defensible position, if you are a pure utilitarian who doesn't believe in individual rights. But for anyone who believes in individual rights, or anyone who thinks smoking and drinking should be legal, there are literally no grounds whatsoever to ban drugs that do not also apply to drink & smoking. People proposing such a dichotomous approach therefore have more hypocritical morals than the world's most wanted terrorist and mass-murderer.

Seriously, I can't think of a single issue where both a rights-based approach *and* a utilitarian/social consequences approach both favour the same position so strongly (most "big issues" are intractable differences of fundamental morality between libertiarian individualists and social utilitarians). Yet remarkably, in much of the supposedly civilised world, the opposite position is taken - without any logically consistent and coherent arguments in favour of it.

I agree with you...its funny that some of the strongest proponents of individual rights and wanting government out of their lives also seem to be anti-drug legalization and assisted suicide. :confused:
 
Quote from Cutten:

You say the comparisons are absurd, but don't give any reasoning to support your claim.

You accuse me of rationalizing. A rationalization is when someone takes valid premises and then uses an inconsistent chain of logic to try to reach their preferred conclusion, rather than using consistent logic and accepting the conclusion that flows from it (even if they initially disagreed with that conclusion). If I am rationalizing then it should be a simple matter for you to point out the flaw in my logic. After all, if you could demonstrate through facts, evidence, and reasoning that criminalization was a superior approach, it would be absurd for me not to accept your proof. Yet once again you don't support your contentious assertion.

You make an invalid assumption that I am not interested in being educated, based on no evidence at all - just the fact that I disagree with you about something.

There are various terms used to describe the kind of behaviour you are displaying - none of them very flattering.

No, it's just your rebuttals are nothing more that wild diatribes. I don't give a fuck about the law if it doesn't help addicts get clean. Legalization will not help one single addict get clean. What is it you don't understand about that? The illegality of drugs becomes irrelevant if one doesn't use drugs in the first place.
 
I would hope that the goal would be recovery from drug addiction, not just getting drug addicts "clean."

Clean and sober have a meaning that is much different than simply not drinking or not doing drugs.

We have watched a white knuckle sobriety president the past 8 years in the white house, and as much as he wants to praise his God for his not drinking, it is pretty clear that Bush was and is not a sober man...

Quote from CaptainObvious:

No, it's just your rebuttals are nothing more that wild diatribes. I don't give a fuck about the law if it doesn't help addicts get clean. Legalization will not help one single addict get clean. What is it you don't understand about that? The illegality of drugs becomes irrelevant if one doesn't use drugs in the first place.
 
Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

I would hope that the goal would be recovery from drug addiction, not just getting drug addicts "clean."

Clean and sober have a meaning that is much different than simply not drinking or not doing drugs.

We have watched a white knuckle sobriety president the past 8 years in the white house, and as much as he wants to praise his God for his not drinking, it is pretty clear that Bush was and is not a sober man...

Yes, clean and sober is the goal. Far as Bush goes I think you're confusing sobriety with competence. He's just a fuck up, drunk or sober.
 
quote from CaptainObvious
No, it's just your rebuttals are nothing more that wild diatribes. I don't give a fuck about the law if it doesn't help addicts get clean. Legalization will not help one single addict get clean. What is it you don't understand about that? The illegality of drugs becomes irrelevant if one doesn't use drugs in the first place.

CO,
First, I'll concede two points. One, legalization won't get current addicts clean. Two, most users have to be hit between the eyes before the light begins to come on. As regards legalization though it is the condition that drugs are illegal that escalates the problem to its current level. Whether drugs are or are not legal there will always be some level of abuse. My contention is that if there were no prohibitions against them the problem would exist at a lower level.

As Prohibition so clearly demonstrated, government involvement exacerbates the problem. Consider Pablo Escobar, who through the enormous profits that come from an artificial scarcity induced by criminalizing cocaine, was able to highjack an entire country and caused unspeakable horrors for its citizens. Untold billions were spent and continues to this day. In addition the United States engages in police/military exercises in foreign countries that can not realistically be expected to stop the trafficking, and end up as a public relations disaster from a foreign relations perspective. All this from demand being supplied at very high prices here because the drug is illegal.

Would legalization end addiction? NO! But if the enormous profits associated with them were removed by admitting defeat in the War on Drugs, the supply would be reduced which in the final analysis would result in fewer addicts in the future, along with the additional reduction in official corruption and mayhem in the streets that comes not so much from the addicts but their suppliers.

Your main concern here seems to be getting addicts straight. Kudos for that. I am simply arguing that from a big picture perspective, illegality of drugs is part of the problem.
 
Quote from nevadan:

CO,
First, I'll concede two points. One, legalization won't get current addicts clean. Two, most users have to be hit between the eyes before the light begins to come on. As regards legalization though it is the condition that drugs are illegal that escalates the problem to its current level. Whether drugs are or are not legal there will always be some level of abuse. My contention is that if there were no prohibitions against them the problem would exist at a lower level.

As Prohibition so clearly demonstrated, government involvement exacerbates the problem. Consider Pablo Escobar, who through the enormous profits that come from an artificial scarcity induced by criminalizing cocaine, was able to highjack an entire country and caused unspeakable horrors for its citizens. Untold billions were spent and continues to this day. In addition the United States engages in police/military exercises in foreign countries that can not realistically be expected to stop the trafficking, and end up as a public relations disaster from a foreign relations perspective. All this from demand being supplied at very high prices here because the drug is illegal.

Would legalization end addiction? NO! But if the enormous profits associated with them were removed by admitting defeat in the War on Drugs, the supply would be reduced which in the final analysis would result in fewer addicts in the future, along with the additional reduction in official corruption and mayhem in the streets that comes not so much from the addicts but their suppliers.

Your main concern here seems to be getting addicts straight. Kudos for that. I am simply arguing that from a big picture perspective, illegality of drugs is part of the problem.

Your argument for legalization seems plausible on the surface. Would it reduce actual supply? I don't know, it might. Addicts are resourceful people. They'll find a way to get high.
I've stated over and over that I support treatment over imprisonment for 1st, 2nd, even 3rd offenders that are doing nothing other than buying for personal consumption. The problem is that treatment is an easy game to play for those that aren't serious. It's a revolving door. (I'll give you that the prison system is a revolving door as well.) Addicts tend to get a bit more serious about finding recovery when they're looking at some prison time.
It's a problem that deserves more attention than it gets. I think reasonable people that really gave a damn could find a better solution, which might involve some compromise from both sides of the legalization argument. If some form of legalization would actually help, I'd support that. However, there does have to be something that, at some point, "hits them between the eyes". Treatment as that threat ain't much of a stick.
 
Quote from Cutten:

I don't think anyone has disputed that point. I am pretty sure the workers at Swiss treatment centers are well aware of the harmful impact of drug addiction, as is every single person on this thread who has supported drug decriminalisation.

What is under dispute are two simple points - is the mere usage of drugs (absent any other factors) morally wrong, does it intrinsically harm others or violate their rights? And what is the justification and rationale for imprisoning drug users, given that there are proven alternatives which have been tried and succeeded far better at reducing the social and individual problems that drugs can cause.

As far as I can tell, no one has yet given a reason why drug use per se is immoral. Nor has anyone given evidence that the criminalisation approach produces better overall results for society and individuals than the medical/rehabilitation approach. As soon as someone deigns to at least *try* to give reasons or evidence for either of those contentions, then there will be a debate worth having. So far no one has done that, all they have done is make points that *no one disputes*, but which in no way support the position of criminalising drugs.

Proponents of criminalisation would do well to consider the analogy to alcohol and smoking. Booze and smoking destroy lives. Serious alcohol addicts especially can be violent, anti-social, pose risks to others etc. Yet the policy almost all societies have adopted is to treat and if necessary jail those who, as a result of alcohol use, indulge in behaviour *harmful or extremely dangerous to others* (i.e. criminal); whilst at the same time not criminalising those alcohol users who do not commit crimes against innocent people. A drinker who argues at home when drunk is not put in jail, and no one seriously suggests they should be. A drinker who turns that argument into domestic battery is put in jail, as they should be. Now, substitute "alcohol" for "heroin" or whatever other drug you want, and substitute "drinking" and "drinker" for "injecting" and "drug user", and then explain why the arguments are any different?

That's the challenge for those who wants drugs illegal and users banged up for years. What is it about use of drug X that means criminalisation is justified morally, and preferable social policy, compared to drug Y? It can't be loss of life, since so many die from cigarettes and alcohol. It can't be social consequences, since the consequences of the war on drugs are demonstrably far worse than the consequences of a Swiss-style liberal drug regime. So tell us - what is it?

At least people like Osama bin Laden and the Saudis are morally and logically consistent - they want *all* booze, smoking, drugs banned. That is a defensible position, if you are a pure utilitarian who doesn't believe in individual rights. But for anyone who believes in individual rights, or anyone who thinks smoking and drinking should be legal, there are literally no grounds whatsoever to ban drugs that do not also apply to drink & smoking. People proposing such a dichotomous approach therefore have more hypocritical morals than the world's most wanted terrorist and mass-murderer.

Seriously, I can't think of a single issue where both a rights-based approach *and* a utilitarian/social consequences approach both favour the same position so strongly (most "big issues" are intractable differences of fundamental morality between libertiarian individualists and social utilitarians). Yet remarkably, in much of the supposedly civilised world, the opposite position is taken - without any logically consistent and coherent arguments in favour of it.


"drugs" and "booze" are fundemently different.

booze is a product of the fermentation process of fruits and grains.

"drugs" are concocted in labs, and have virtually no limitations on their potency.

now, smoking a plant grown out of the earth I'm down with
 
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