Swiss likely to approve prescription heroin

Which system is more civilized?

  • The U.S. way: Strict prohibition laws & hard time!

    Votes: 8 22.9%

  • The Swiss way: YOU decide what goes into your own body, not the government.

    Votes: 27 77.1%
  • Total voters
    35
Quote from CaptainObvious:

For repeat offenders...absolutely. Unfortunately prison is part of the recovery process for many, and even that won't do it for everyone. For those that simply refuse help prison is just another consequence of their actions.
The sooner an addict has to pay the price for his actions, the better chance they have of kicking the habit. However, the tragic bottom line is, a person does actually have to want a clean life. If they don't, they won't. There is no magic bullet.
Been there, done that, in spades.
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In that case, why not confiscate another few hundred billion dollars from our paychecks and use it to fund a new armed para-military regulatory agency: The Food Enforcement Agency. After all, overeating (or 'food abuse') is the cause of many severe (and costly) medical problems.

The FEA could regulate the nation's food industry with an iron fist, 'scheduling' (banning) unhealthy foods, and carting off all the prohibition violators to prison camps at gunpoint. For instance, French fry traffickers would receive a mandatory minimum ten year prison sentence. I think this would really help solve America's obesity epidemic, just like how the DEA has successfully stamped out illegal drug use.

After all, 'the sooner an addict has to pay the price for his actions, the better chance they have of kicking the habit'!
 
Nice strawman...

Quote from Rearden Metal:

In that case, why not confiscate another few hundred billion dollars from our paychecks and use it to fund a new armed para-military regulatory agency: The Food Enforcement Agency. After all, overeating (or 'food abuse') is the cause of many severe (and costly) medical problems.

The FEA could regulate the nation's food industry with an iron fist, 'scheduling' (banning) unhealthy foods, and carting off all the prohibition violators to prison camps at gunpoint. For instance, French fry traffickers would receive a mandatory minimum ten year prison sentence. I think this would really help solve America's obesity epidemic, just like how the DEA has successfully stamped out illegal drug use.

After all, 'the sooner an addict has to pay the price for his actions, the better chance they have of kicking the habit'!
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Yup, total strawman; Because the 500 pound overeater with a 10,000 calorie/day food habit is in sooo much better shape than the 180 pound junkie with a 1,000 mg/day heroin habit... Right?
 
Of course it is a total strawman.

I didn't say your point that you used as a strawman is untrue. The points of a strawman are often true. There is a major problem in this country with the abuse of food, the FDA being a pawn of corporations, etc., obesity and poor nutrition leading to huge medical bills, etc.

However, the tactic is still a strawman.

If you can't deal with the drug issue without the strawman...well then, the strawman is just another fix for the people who cannot defend their position on its own without the implementation of logical fallacy.

Quote from Rearden Metal:

Yup, total strawman; Because the 500 pound overeater with a 10,000 calorie/day food habit is in sooo much better shape than the 180 pound junkie with a 1,000 mg/day heroin habit... Right?
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Comparing the criminal activity of drug addiction with speeding and over eating is absurd and not worthy of debate.
Certainly any addict should be offered treatment as an alternative to prison. I'd go so far as that should be an option twice, maybe even three times. After that, it's been my observation and personal experience that hard time is the next logical step. There are some people that have no desire to change. Fuck'em! I've heard/used all the excuses and rationalization for drug and alcohol abuse. It's all bullshit! The biggest part of recovery is growing the fuck up. Addicts want everything and they want it NOW. Sorry, the world don't turn that way. No pain, no gain is an absolute towards getting clean.
 
Quote from CaptainObvious:

Comparing the criminal activity of drug addiction with speeding and over eating is absurd and not worthy of debate.
Certainly any addict should be offered treatment as an alternative to prison. I'd go so far as that should be an option twice, maybe even three times. After that, it's been my observation and personal experience that hard time is the next logical step. There are some people that have no desire to change. Fuck'em! I've heard/used all the excuses and rationalization for drug and alcohol abuse. It's all bullshit! The biggest part of recovery is growing the fuck up. Addicts want everything and they want it NOW. Sorry, the world don't turn that way. No pain, no gain is an absolute towards getting clean.
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IMO, you're applying a one-size-fits-all solution to a complex problem. I'm guessing you were able to quit violating drug-prohibition laws after facing legal consequences... so was I. That doesn't mean everyone else is capable of doing the same.

If an addict robs, cheats & steals to support his habit, by all means lock him up for causing harm to other people.... but how can you justify imprisoning people who have done no harm to anyone? Your post above clearly shows that you have no concern for the addict's own wellbeing. So for the benefit of <b>whom</b> exactly do you advocate the continuation of mass political imprisonment???
 
Quote from Rearden Metal:

IMO, you're applying a one-size-fits-all solution to a complex problem. I'm guessing you were able to quit violating drug-prohibition laws after facing legal consequences... so was I. That doesn't mean everyone else is capable of doing the same.

If an addict robs, cheats & steals to support his habit, by all means lock him up for causing harm to other people.... but how can you justify imprisoning people who have done no harm to anyone? Your post above clearly shows that you have no concern for the addict's own wellbeing. So for the benefit of <b>whom</b> exactly do you advocate the continuation of mass political imprisonment???
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Mass political imprisonment? That's a little over the top, don't ya' think? It's difficult to debate this over the net. We agree that addicts that commit crimes other than buying dope should go to jail. I stated that addicts simply caught buying dope should be given the opportunity for treatment, more than once if necessary.
I think where we disagree is on how best to help the addict get clean, assuming he wants to get clean. I think doing some time can move the recovery process along. Should they be in forever? Of course not! But what to do with the continually relapsing addict? I take it you'd just have them surrender to their compulsion and do a legal equivalent? I just don't think thanks helpful in the long run. It condemns a person to a life of slavery to the drug. How is that compassionate?
Listen, I believe you'd truly like to find some solution. So would I. I see people die from this shit on a regular basis. I'm heavily involved in volunteer work with addicts and alcoholics. I'm at a loss as to what some cure all would be. It's just been my experience that what works with the most regularity is when an addict really gets gut punched by the consequences of using. I wish there was some other way, but I don't know what it is.
 
Quote from CaptainObvious:

Comparing the criminal activity of drug addiction with speeding
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Speeding kills innocent people, and is a wilful choice by the offender to put other people's lives at risk. Whereas drug addiction is difficult to break, even for strong-willed individuals, and does not kill anyone other than the addict.

Thus if you think drug addicts are culpable and dangerous and should be jailed, surely the same applies to speeders, only more so. It's hard to defend compulsory jail time for victimless crimes, whilst thinking that deliberate crimes with real victims should go unpunished.

I notice you also totally ignored the question as to whether the jail time approach performs better or worse than the medical treatment approach. Surely as a utilitarian interested only in outcomes, the *results* are what matters? The results of criminalising drugs speak for themselves - millions of non-violent prisoners, daily mass rape and sexual slavery in US prisons, huge costs to taxpayers and law enforcement, encouragement of drug cartels via artificially jacked drug prices on the street. The main reason the US has such a high homicide rate compared to the rest of the civilised world is due to the high drug crime over turf wars etc. Contrast to the drug problem in places like the Netherlands or Switzerland or Scandinavia where it is treated more as a medical problem or mental affliction than a serious crime.
 
Quote from Cutten:

The results of criminalising drugs speak for themselves - millions of non-violent prisoners, daily mass rape and sexual slavery in US prisons, huge costs to taxpayers and law enforcement, encouragement of drug cartels via artificially jacked drug prices on the street. The main reason the US has such a high homicide rate compared to the rest of the civilised world is due to the high drug crime over turf wars etc.
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Exactly. The 'medicine' of drug prohibition is often more damaging than the 'illness' it was intended to treat.

<img src=http://www.drugwarfacts.org/Modifiedmurderchart.gif>

Captain, I think you've seen from your experience in working with addicts & alcoholics that in every addiction, some element of obsessive-compulsive disorder is present. Why else would a person be <i>compelled</i> to do something he wishes to quit doing?

So how is imprisoning a man for acting on his victimless compulsions any more justified than locking up a tourettes sufferer for his involuntary twitching? Not very civilized or just if you ask me.
 
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