swing trading versus day trading
- Thread starter failed_trad3r
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I only use the 5 minute bar to look for signals. I do have on another screen the 30 minute ES chart compressed to show maybe 10 days of support and resist levels. Also on that same screen i have the 6E Euro currency future. This older dude used to trade the D Mark in another life.
Also the JY, and the CD, that was trading futures, not retail FX. This retail FX never floated my boat.
Nod, Yes, i think as traders we all went through where at first we were just throwing darts at a chart and wished the mkt to perform as we wished. Then we progressed enough to where we could picture the chart setting up to make a move. That was progress but we still did not have the odds of the setup imprinted into intuitive memory.........that takes more time. Once imprinted in the brain we get giddy and now take the trade with glee.
Then the day comes where we understand to beat this game we must perform like a Robot. Remember what Robin said from that book: "you develope trader muscles and you become automatic, you do the same things over and over ". Thats when you have no fear of the trade because we have the odds in our favor and keep the losses small. Losing is a drag, but shit happens and we just deal with them and catch the bigger runs.
Time for some Football.
I only use the 5 minute bar to look for signals. I do have on another screen the 30 minute ES chart compressed to show maybe 10 days of support and resist levels. Also on that same screen i have the 6E Euro currency future. This older dude used to trade the D Mark in another life.
Also the JY, and the CD, that was trading futures, not retail FX. This retail FX never floated my boat.Nod, Yes, i think as traders we all went through where at first we were just throwing darts at a chart and wished the mkt to perform as we wished. Then we progressed enough to where we could picture the chart setting up to make a move. That was progress but we still did not have the odds of the setup imprinted into intuitive memory.........that takes more time. Once imprinted in the brain we get giddy and now take the trade with glee.
Then the day comes where we understand to beat this game we must perform like a Robot. Remember what Robin said from that book: "you develope trader muscles and you become automatic, you do the same things over and over ". Thats when you have no fear of the trade because we have the odds in our favor and keep the losses small. Losing is a drag, but shit happens and we just deal with them and catch the bigger runs.
Time for some Football.Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what he is implying is that you need to be methodical and detached. Your system defines the framework you operate from: setups, position size, exits, etc. Once those are defined, your mission is just to execute, coldly and logically, a'la Mr Spock. If something needs to be changed, then you change your system. If you attempt to cherry pick your trades out of the system, then you are not following your system rules and 99% of the time, you are going to do something based on greed/fear, which will eventually screw you.Quote from failed_trad3r:
I still don't get what you say. So I take 4 signals???
I like to compare trading to plays in pro football. The QB picks his play based on the situation and everybody executes exactly like they have trained. If you call the right play at the right time, you score. If not, you might lose a few yards or even turn the ball over sometimes, but you're not second guessing the play once it's called and the ball snaps. That's what Monday morning highlight films and practice are for. Gameday is all about execution.
.......................................................... goonier, all that is good stuff. But let me try to help with the questions answer.
Disregard "he does not know the difference between shit and Shinola. That was just a colloquial expression used to suggest the difference between knowing a good KEY and a bad KEY. HINT: all KEYS are good if they have something to reverse, but i use a signal within the signal that after filled you know when to "make like Cinderella and lose a slipper"
As a child i remember that phrase ( the shoe shine one) used a lot by "grown ups". Today the grown ups and especially the youth are far less caring and simply say............ "---------------------------------------" even in public and in the presense of children, shameful, very shameful"
No trading signal will always work, it behoves a trader to know when a signal is nullified and remember the fairy tale of where "every Cinderella has a midnight and when the time comes..........KNOW when to lose a slipper"
have the finger on the mouse and be ready to pull away its cheese with a click.
Bighog,
I want to âthank youâ for sharing the real truth of the matterâ¦itâs all about the DISCIPLINE of admitting your wrong asap-trade after trade-day after dayâ¦in any time frame. I really believe that us humans are more concerned about being ârightâ then making moneyâ¦and trading digs deep into our male ego and puts us to the TEST!
I donât have any fancy systems + Iâm not too computer sophisticated like many of u are- Im just an old school tape reader who makes mistakes (getting out too quick), overthinks/hesitates missing trades at times (every day), but still able to make something most of the days- and I believe the reason is because I have great patience & strong discipline on the downside ( when i start losing) and I think ( as bighog has mentioned) one must put in the âscreen timeâ (5000 hours+) in order to have a chance.
Still not sure trading can be taught from books/seminars/mentors cause of the strong human emotions of fear & greed we all react differently tooâ¦but only though hard work & practice can one get better. Even an old goat( Iâm 50 with 2 years under my fat stomach) can do it...(but could very well drop dead from a heart attack from staring at these screens at any moment) so u better love itâ¦
Thanks again Bighog, for telling us many wise impressions!
I want to âthank youâ for sharing the real truth of the matterâ¦itâs all about the DISCIPLINE of admitting your wrong asap-trade after trade-day after dayâ¦in any time frame. I really believe that us humans are more concerned about being ârightâ then making moneyâ¦and trading digs deep into our male ego and puts us to the TEST!
I donât have any fancy systems + Iâm not too computer sophisticated like many of u are- Im just an old school tape reader who makes mistakes (getting out too quick), overthinks/hesitates missing trades at times (every day), but still able to make something most of the days- and I believe the reason is because I have great patience & strong discipline on the downside ( when i start losing) and I think ( as bighog has mentioned) one must put in the âscreen timeâ (5000 hours+) in order to have a chance.
Still not sure trading can be taught from books/seminars/mentors cause of the strong human emotions of fear & greed we all react differently tooâ¦but only though hard work & practice can one get better. Even an old goat( Iâm 50 with 2 years under my fat stomach) can do it...(but could very well drop dead from a heart attack from staring at these screens at any moment) so u better love itâ¦
Thanks again Bighog, for telling us many wise impressions!
All knowledge about this world can be taught. This issue is how, by whom and whether the subject being taught is able to comprehend the essense of what is being taught.
A true mentor can tell you a few "secrets" that can save you a lot of money and trouble. However, there is an issue here: why doing that? For money? Nah, a true mentor does not need any money. The only reason for doing that is if you are a child of his or he takes something else he needs from you. Why make you rich? Just for paying $1000 to attend a seminar? Don't even think of that.
If you do not have a guru trader father or brother or you are not willing to "submit" and perform some chores to learn, the only way left is by discovering those "secrets" yourself. The problem is that for most people is takes two or more, not one, lifetime to discover them. For most people one lifetime is not enough to learn trading. This is the real story. I discovered a couple of secrets by trading long enough and another one accidentaly. The last one was a remarkable discovery.
agree on the $1000 seminar part.... not sure I agree it takes a lifetime... then by definition there would be no good trader who is still alive
anyway, it boils down to screen time... the usual 10,000 hour rule probably applies.... say somebody spends 10 hours/day, so 1000 days, about 5 years straight... he oughta be able to see a chart and know in certain situations, there is a good chance (say 70% odds) that market may do certain things.
And that's just the technique part.
As the snow gently falls out side my window I turn my head to watch my swing or position trades slowing work on my screen. Each day this is what I do during my retirement from the financial industry. While some of these trades progress I often read books to pass the time away while the trades either make or break. Recently during one long trade I read a book on the old American west that showed me that some debates about making a dollar never change.
In the old west the gold Placer miners (day traders) of those days grabbed all the gold they could each day by digging through lose sand or gravel. This worked best in streams where water was used to separate the gold from the sand and gravel. If you found the right stream it was only minutes to your first payback. After a good days haul of gold dust they would often be in the local saloons enjoying their spoils and hooting it up while other miners toiled endlessly to find bigger gold deposits.
One type of gold mining that required more time to get a pay back was Hard Rock mining or drilling shafts in the ground. Often Hard Rock (swing and position traders) miners would come into the saloon with nothing to show for their day because they were still digging their shafts (trades in progress). Placer miners would razz the Hard Rock miners telling them they were missing all of the easy pickings.
Occasionally a Hard Rock miner âstruck a big veinâ (like some of my short positions in 2008 or the longs of April 2009) and he or she was soon in the saloon telling the placer miner they were fools for taking such small payouts when Hard Rock mining is where the âbig moneyâ is at. Which we know is not true.
Modern trading is no less of a challenge than mining for gold in the old west. Any type of trader (I have done both) has to pay their dues to trading in order to learn to be successful no matter what style of mining they use on the markets. Just like the placer miner of old the modern day trader has to have a level of passion and persistence to find the next stream with gold dust when the old stream dries up either from lack of water or gold. The swing trader has to be prepared to dig many âdeadâ shafts before they begin to strike âsmall veinsâ. Swing traders cannot expect that they will strike the âbig veinâ that often. They must be prepared to have a long wait time before these times occur.
Traders of today are no different than old west miners. History shows us 10s of 1000s of Placer and Hard Rock miners could not learn the basics of mining, deal with the repeated failures to find consistent profits and persevere through the hardships mining presented in order to gain their ultimate reward. Just like the old west the majority of todayâs market miners will give up long before they find specks of gold because they are not willing to pay for the price for success or as they said in the old west âNo lickinâ no learninâ!â Then there will be others who are persistent and take their lickinâ but just not able to find a good claim (gain their edge). In any case there are those who will find some gold in these markets regardless of how they mine.
In the old west the gold Placer miners (day traders) of those days grabbed all the gold they could each day by digging through lose sand or gravel. This worked best in streams where water was used to separate the gold from the sand and gravel. If you found the right stream it was only minutes to your first payback. After a good days haul of gold dust they would often be in the local saloons enjoying their spoils and hooting it up while other miners toiled endlessly to find bigger gold deposits.
One type of gold mining that required more time to get a pay back was Hard Rock mining or drilling shafts in the ground. Often Hard Rock (swing and position traders) miners would come into the saloon with nothing to show for their day because they were still digging their shafts (trades in progress). Placer miners would razz the Hard Rock miners telling them they were missing all of the easy pickings.
Occasionally a Hard Rock miner âstruck a big veinâ (like some of my short positions in 2008 or the longs of April 2009) and he or she was soon in the saloon telling the placer miner they were fools for taking such small payouts when Hard Rock mining is where the âbig moneyâ is at. Which we know is not true.
Modern trading is no less of a challenge than mining for gold in the old west. Any type of trader (I have done both) has to pay their dues to trading in order to learn to be successful no matter what style of mining they use on the markets. Just like the placer miner of old the modern day trader has to have a level of passion and persistence to find the next stream with gold dust when the old stream dries up either from lack of water or gold. The swing trader has to be prepared to dig many âdeadâ shafts before they begin to strike âsmall veinsâ. Swing traders cannot expect that they will strike the âbig veinâ that often. They must be prepared to have a long wait time before these times occur.
Traders of today are no different than old west miners. History shows us 10s of 1000s of Placer and Hard Rock miners could not learn the basics of mining, deal with the repeated failures to find consistent profits and persevere through the hardships mining presented in order to gain their ultimate reward. Just like the old west the majority of todayâs market miners will give up long before they find specks of gold because they are not willing to pay for the price for success or as they said in the old west âNo lickinâ no learninâ!â Then there will be others who are persistent and take their lickinâ but just not able to find a good claim (gain their edge). In any case there are those who will find some gold in these markets regardless of how they mine.
It is DISCIPLINE.
One - Define what it is that you are ie Trader, Investor, Scalper, other, etc.
Two - Create a plan. Regardless of what your plan is, stick to it. Draw a line in the sand and stick to it. Do not erase it nor draw a new one.
Take detailed notes and review your trades on a regular basis. Make changes accordingly.
If you allow your minute breakouts to become trend trades, and day trade to become swing trades then investments, expect to lose a lot of time and money.
Brendan P. Byrne
Trader
One - Define what it is that you are ie Trader, Investor, Scalper, other, etc.
Two - Create a plan. Regardless of what your plan is, stick to it. Draw a line in the sand and stick to it. Do not erase it nor draw a new one.
Take detailed notes and review your trades on a regular basis. Make changes accordingly.
If you allow your minute breakouts to become trend trades, and day trade to become swing trades then investments, expect to lose a lot of time and money.
Brendan P. Byrne
Trader