Huh?
Nice ethics dude.
Don't tell me its ok because the owners are scum. Two wrongs don't make a right. Three lefts do.
Nice ethics dude.
Don't tell me its ok because the owners are scum. Two wrongs don't make a right. Three lefts do.
Swift Trade
- Thread starter Kaya
- Start date
You are just as bad. Working nights at UBS must be getting to you.
Where are the moral lessons your mother should have taught you?
Where are the moral lessons your mother should have taught you?
How is that wrong? You are just playing the game where they set the rules. You are trying to get to their break points with what they give you to trade in their time frame. I am sure they could limit your position size with risk management.
The rules of my game do not include the concept that if you can get away with it then you do it. Because they can limit my size, then if they don't I should take a shot on their ass? Not right!
If someone gave me an opportiunity to build my own business as a trader, why would I shit on him because I could? The sense of entitlement around the trading world is amazing. The want doesn't give you the right.
If someone gave me an opportiunity to build my own business as a trader, why would I shit on him because I could? The sense of entitlement around the trading world is amazing. The want doesn't give you the right.
Discipline, glad to see that you appear to be an extremely morally grounded person, and while your "two wrongs don't make a right" is admirable I would save it for Sunday school. I only have observational experience (friends who trade/traded there) but my info. is that moral platitudes and 'fair dealing' don't rank high on the priority list around there.
As far as using them as a stepping stone goes, what is morally or ethically wrong with that? That is what building a career is all about, gaining experience and moving on to the next best opportunity. While I agree taking a reckless and irresponsible attitude towards trading their capital is a bad strategy for career advancement ,I don't think it is particularly morally corrupt.
Swift hires guys to make them money, and from what I understand they squeeze every penny out of their traders. They are big boys. They understand the risks involved in giving someone enough buying power to do damage, and then putting people under the pressure of having to cross a $7000 net/ month threshold to get paid! Is it unethical that a guy could work responsibly and diligently for a month observing good risk management, make $6900 and not get paid a nickle? This type of scenario encourages if not forces traders to trade with reckless abandon and swing for the fences.
I see no problem with traders doing what they feel they need to in order to eat when Swift sets the rules and is ultimately in total control. Swift doesn't complain when guys take big risk and it has favorable results (ie. makes them money). And you know if you are losing them money they bounce your ass out on the street. My observations of these guys is that they are more interested in indentured servitude than they are of having morally, ethically responsible and well grounded professional traders.
X
p.s. two wrongs don't make a right, but three rights... make a left.
I realize that Swift owners or the firm in general was not working on a high moral plane. I was refering to the idea in general that a trader would screw the prop house in order to do whatever was best for the trader regardless of the firm and its character.
In the case of Swift, if they were not honoring what they agreed to, then I would leave. Period. I would not think it acceptable to take a shot on their dime simply because I could. Sunday school or not (not religious) it is not appropriate to do that. If they screwed you, leave and fight them in court if necessary (I am not big on being litigious -never sued or been sued nor do I expect to ever be) or out- trade them on the playing field that is the markets.
In the case of Swift, if they were not honoring what they agreed to, then I would leave. Period. I would not think it acceptable to take a shot on their dime simply because I could. Sunday school or not (not religious) it is not appropriate to do that. If they screwed you, leave and fight them in court if necessary (I am not big on being litigious -never sued or been sued nor do I expect to ever be) or out- trade them on the playing field that is the markets.
Discipline and Mecro.. you guys are on each other's throats on every forum relax guys
Kaya,
I work at SwiftTrade, I started in early 2002 and I am still there. Last year I averaged about $70K in salary.(Canadian). It is true you have to be profitable after 3 months and average $4,000 / month (not 5K anymore) to get hired and paid! You get paid more though if you make 7K+ you get 30%. It is true that now with SuperMontage it is a lot harder. Out of 30 prop. traders in my office, 20 were making $20K+ per month before November 2002 (before SuperMontage) and right now only 5 or so traders make the $20K. The rest avg. about 5 to 10K. March and April were particularly hard because of the dry volume. However we are going to train and possibly trade the Futures markets soon as well as EUREX. So yes there are opportunities, and it is an excellent place to learn market dynamics. And you don't have to put up any of your own money. They do hire people with NO experience although I have noticed that the experienced/education in financial markets, people tend to make the required minimum and become full time traders.
Zino.
relax guys Kaya,
I work at SwiftTrade, I started in early 2002 and I am still there. Last year I averaged about $70K in salary.(Canadian). It is true you have to be profitable after 3 months and average $4,000 / month (not 5K anymore) to get hired and paid! You get paid more though if you make 7K+ you get 30%. It is true that now with SuperMontage it is a lot harder. Out of 30 prop. traders in my office, 20 were making $20K+ per month before November 2002 (before SuperMontage) and right now only 5 or so traders make the $20K. The rest avg. about 5 to 10K. March and April were particularly hard because of the dry volume. However we are going to train and possibly trade the Futures markets soon as well as EUREX. So yes there are opportunities, and it is an excellent place to learn market dynamics. And you don't have to put up any of your own money. They do hire people with NO experience although I have noticed that the experienced/education in financial markets, people tend to make the required minimum and become full time traders.
Zino.
I do not advocate intentionally acting in a manner that is contrary to the interests of the firm ( and by default the trader), by setting out to try and lose money. As I said I don't think that this benefits the trader anyways since it has no "experience" value and it certainly won't be something you want on your resume for your next trading job. However, I stand firm on my position that Swift forces guys to act in a less than responsible manner and I don't see this as an ethical issue for the trader. If Swift doesn't want traders to act in that "self-interested", have to take big risks manner, than they should not create and foster an environment where this behavior is rewarded. Humans are survivalist by nature and when it comes to something as basic as providing for one's self and their family, people are going to do what they perceive they have to. And when this is not clearly stated as being "outside the rules" well.......
I would agree that if the trader is not happy with his treatment or the firm is not honoring their commitments the trader should leave. I think some actually have. I think for the most part Swift is compensated quite well for those people that some may perceive as taking advantage of the firm and in the end the decision is with Swift as to wether or not to keep them around. The funny thing is, and this speaks to your point about leaving, the contracts that the traders have to sign make it near impossible (or seemingly near impossible) to leave of one's own volition and "compete against them on the playing field that is the market".
Again take it for what its worth, I only speak as an third party observer.
X
I would agree that if the trader is not happy with his treatment or the firm is not honoring their commitments the trader should leave. I think some actually have. I think for the most part Swift is compensated quite well for those people that some may perceive as taking advantage of the firm and in the end the decision is with Swift as to wether or not to keep them around. The funny thing is, and this speaks to your point about leaving, the contracts that the traders have to sign make it near impossible (or seemingly near impossible) to leave of one's own volition and "compete against them on the playing field that is the market".
Again take it for what its worth, I only speak as an third party observer.
X
You make a good point that if the firm was not happy they would throw the trader out in a minute. Is taking an out of character risk trade the same as a constructive firing. It forces the firm to firm you to get out of your contract.
Sounds to me like the appropriate decision here is to avoid Swift. Like you, I know not from firsthand experience, but what you read here stinks.
Sounds to me like the appropriate decision here is to avoid Swift. Like you, I know not from firsthand experience, but what you read here stinks.