Surf's Special Situation Journal

syswizard · Nov 5, 2012

Quote from marketsurfer:

I know there was a year lock up, so we couldn't bail despite seeing the loss.

That had to be agony-to-the-max.

It was a 2/20 split of which I recd XX% for capital introductions

So Red Kite gets $20 million for every $100 million of net gains ?
And $2 million for every $100 million invested win or lose ?
Wow.

marketsurfer · Nov 5, 2012

Quote from syswizard:

That had to be agony-to-the-max.

So Red Kite gets $20 million for every $100 million of net gains ?
And $2 million for every $100 million invested win or lose ?
Wow.

Yes, that's correct. The hedge fund business was/is the best business in the world.-- remember this was all pre madoff--

We were up 75% in an option trading fund, the same year, so it more than covered the loss, but had RK performed as expected, I would have my house on Nantucket, etc---

cornix · Nov 5, 2012

Quote from syswizard:

That's part of it, but if they lose clients as in the case of Farmer, they lose fee income as well. Maybe Surf can explain how the Red Lite funds were charging their clients. It does appear that it was easy to redeem funds from Farmer....as that is not always the case with hedge funds.

Right they may lose opportunity, but basically don't risk anything else. Which looks like a good "free call option" as one person named it in the other thread.

cornix · Nov 5, 2012

Quote from syswizard:

So Red Kite gets $20 million for every $100 million of net gains ?
And $2 million for every $100 million invested win or lose ?
Wow.

Not bad at all... If you make money you get $2M + profit share. If you lose you still get $2M. I like the deal.

marketsurfer · Nov 6, 2012

Quote from cornixforex:

Right they may lose opportunity, but basically don't risk anything else. Which looks like a good "free call option" as one person named it in the other thread.

Exactly. The most interesting dynamic in the business is if you lose huge, like blow up a big fund, money becomes extremely attracted to you and the market gives you another chance or several. I can name multiple hedgees who blew up but are back managing OPM in a big way. Now if you just fade away and close up shop-- you are finished. OR obviously, if you commit fraud in ANY way, you are finished in the business.

Investors seem to ascribe some type of magical ability to be able to attract large sums of money, win or lose big.

Wall Street simply does not reward the lukewarm---which i consider the "tight stop, TA, PA traders"to be.

surf

cornix · Nov 6, 2012

Quote from marketsurfer:

Exactly. The most interesting dynamic in the business is if you lose huge, like blow up a big fund, money becomes extremely attracted to you and the market gives you another chance or several. I can name multiple hedgees who blew up but are back managing OPM in a big way. Now if you just fade away and close up shop-- you are finished. OR obviously, if you commit fraud in ANY way, you are finished in the business.

Investors seem to ascribe some type of magical ability to be able to attract large sums of money, win or lose big.

Wall Street simply does not reward the lukewarm---which i consider the "tight stop, TA, PA traders"to be.

surf

Well, tight stops are not the feature of just retail traders, professional scalpers for example also cut losses pretty short.

marketsurfer · Nov 6, 2012

Quote from cornixforex:

Well, tight stops are not the feature of just retail traders, professional scalpers for example also cut losses pretty short.

Money is not attracted to scalpers, regardless of their status. But the market machine loves them, and stops too-- as it encourages paying huge vigs daily-- in other words, the market LOVES folks that try to scalp-- i thought that style went out many moons ago?> scalping was tough enough with fractions, scalping for pennies?

surf

cornix · Nov 6, 2012

Quote from marketsurfer:

Money is not attracted to scalpers, regardless of their status. But the market machine loves them, and stops too-- as it encourages paying huge vigs daily.

surf

Agree, huge money is in the long-term macro trading, not scalping.

marketsurfer · Nov 6, 2012

Quote from cornixforex:

Agree, huge money is in the long-term macro trading, not scalping.

Scalping has huge money too, it just flows away from you and into the markets machinery--- why would anyone want to be involved with such a pursuit with a negative edge built in. not to mention HFT competition?

cornix · Nov 6, 2012

Quote from marketsurfer:

Scalping has huge money too, it just flows away from you and into the markets machinery--- why would anyone want to be involved with such a pursuit with a negative edge built in. not to mention HFT competition?

It depends on what we call scalping of course. What NoD does I believe has edge, but certainly is not scalable to millions. Agree with you on HFT, pretty stupid to compete with it, but I like the liquidity bots provide in FX last years.