Superstition, Luck and Vodoo
- Thread starter rs7
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off topic, i suppose, but heard an interesting story... a high ranking military man was describing how his daughter was employed by a nice Muslim man....who turned out to be one of the 911 hijackers.
I think what they despise about America is the sewage they see on TV. I suppose they assume the average American actually thinks that way. It's OK, I despise it, too.
I think what they despise about America is the sewage they see on TV. I suppose they assume the average American actually thinks that way. It's OK, I despise it, too.
I think the popular definition of religion is inadequate and does not define my reality. Not talking about the dictionary definition, but the ideas that pop up in the average joe's head when he hears the word 'religion.' I have nothing to do with that glossed over image and neither does the God I worship. I don't care about stereotypes and I don't care about popular conceptions. I care about actual reality, living breathing existence, the REAL as Morpheus would say (man what a great movie).
I don't have blind faith in God. I don't have blind faith in anything. Those who worship science like to present themselves as being more rational than those who worship God. But they are not. What is science? It's an investigative process. A way to look at things and explain things. Science leads to three things: information, quality of life improvements, and consumer goods. Bumpty-doo-boo, that's it. Neither of those three things does much for ultimate reality. Science is not a true cornerstone for a worldview. It is not a way to answer questions of morality, questions of right and wrong, questions of purpose, questions of anything beyond curiosity and comfort. It's just a way to get a handle on physical reality.
Every time a scientist makes a pronouncement about anything beyond his measuring capability or observing capability or anything outside the scope of the physical world , his credibility is nil and out of bounds. Scientists have no moral authority, no philosophical authority, no societal authority. They cannot even claim to be the clearest thinkers or the most unemotional observers. Information, quality of life and consumer goods. That's all they've got. What they do see, they don't see all that well. Inspiring, huh?
Believers in man-made progress make fun of believers in God because of the "obvious contradictions." This is blockheaded because everything complex has seeming contradictions, from global financial markets down to the turbulence in a glass of water. If the criticism was not emotionally charged, it would be painfully obvious that many seeming contradictions are due to misunderstanding or lack of full understanding rather than an actual problem. But it is usually never taken to true investigative levels; the smug science worshipers are content to take potshots and crack wise.
There are contradictions at the heart of science as well. Quantum physics uncovers relationships that seem to defy all boundaries of space and time. Gravity and mass become completely disconnected in ways that make no sense at all. Subatomic particles develop synchronous relationships that are unaffected by vast amounts of physical space or any amount of disruptive matter in between. The human brain carries similar contradictions. No one has yet resolved what a 'thought' actually consists of, or whether thoughts can be stored or transported as pure energy, or even what 'thinking' really is.
Contradictions lie at the heart of mathematics also. Bertrand Russell offhandedly came up with subset paradoxes that remain unexplained to this day. Einstein used a different kind of math entirely for his theories, and we are not sure that our current system is the only one or even necessarily a valid one.
Is this really an environment in which God can be dismissed out of hand, where things as basic as mathematics and gravity and thought are filled with bugaboos and flaws? I think not. In fact, the existence of an omniscient, omnipresent being is theoretically viable based on what we already know- or rather what we DON'T know- in fields of quantum theory and consciousness. Science does not disprove God in any way. And philosophical examination of reality shows that He is indeed there, if we don't let our egos and our desire for autonomy get in the way.
You call me 'wrong' Stu, but you don't give a word why. You say I can't prove my beliefs so they are automatically invalid. But you cannot prove your beliefs either. I gave a nutshell case as to why logical positivists are woefully shortsighted, and your response is basically "that's nice, you're wrong." Great rebuttal. You would probably argue that you do not worship anything, but if your feet stand on the bedrock of science alone, that means your faith is in things like progress and electricity. Or if you strive to have faith in nothing, you set yourself up for a self contradictory, nihilistic existence. Whether you choose to be consistent with that choice or not is up to you. I dare say you choose to be inconsistent with chosen nihilism because embracing the nothingness of reality leads to pain and horror if faced fully. As it should when denying the reason for our existence (God).
I believe in God because reality is not logical otherwise. Logic is not logical otherwise. My faith in reason and my faith in God are fully intertwined. Without God there is no reason, in both senses of the phrase.
Don't ask me to 'prove' what cannot be proven, you should know that is folly. I do not ask you to 'prove' your disbelief either, because you cannot do that. And do not suggest that I or anyone else operates on blind faith. It takes a lot more blind faith to be smugly confident that there is nothingness, than it does to conduct a search for meaning and find it.
By the way, though I poke fun at science I am actually a fan of it. I support true science and true inquiry because the more we know, the closer God becomes. Quantum physics is just the tip of the iceberg. If you open your eyes you can see the fingerprints of a rational, sentient creator all over the place. As we get more into the workings of the brain, I am sure we will be fascinated further. Have you ever seen the delicate workings of a human eye? Most amazing.
So don't try to beat down religion with your pseudo-logic sword, Stu. That same sword is wielded powerfully against you. God does not defy logic or run against logic, rather he is at the very heart of it. Truth as an eternal concept was created by Him, it is in the essence of his character. The more we understand of science, the more we understand of reality, the harder it will be to deny the truth. The currents will get stronger and stronger as we move out of our haze, until finally the truth is like a blazing sun.
I didn't mean to get off on a rant here. I just wanted to assure you that the world I live in is very real. I hold no illusions and I will leave no stone unturned when it comes to getting true facts, true understanding of what is actually happening. Delusion is for some but not for me. So don't wave your hand and dismiss me as superstitious or babbling. I strive for consistency and accuracy in everything I believe, and also the ability to fully and logically defend everything I believe. Many do not. They rely on the ho-hum ennui of the world to validate their atheistic, progress oriented yawns. This is not thinking. This is not reality.
I donât really expect to get through to you Stu. But I hope I can at least remove your implied notion that you are rational and I am not. No superstitious hillbilly here, as much as it might ease your mind to believe I am.
I don't have blind faith in God. I don't have blind faith in anything. Those who worship science like to present themselves as being more rational than those who worship God. But they are not. What is science? It's an investigative process. A way to look at things and explain things. Science leads to three things: information, quality of life improvements, and consumer goods. Bumpty-doo-boo, that's it. Neither of those three things does much for ultimate reality. Science is not a true cornerstone for a worldview. It is not a way to answer questions of morality, questions of right and wrong, questions of purpose, questions of anything beyond curiosity and comfort. It's just a way to get a handle on physical reality.
Every time a scientist makes a pronouncement about anything beyond his measuring capability or observing capability or anything outside the scope of the physical world , his credibility is nil and out of bounds. Scientists have no moral authority, no philosophical authority, no societal authority. They cannot even claim to be the clearest thinkers or the most unemotional observers. Information, quality of life and consumer goods. That's all they've got. What they do see, they don't see all that well. Inspiring, huh?
Believers in man-made progress make fun of believers in God because of the "obvious contradictions." This is blockheaded because everything complex has seeming contradictions, from global financial markets down to the turbulence in a glass of water. If the criticism was not emotionally charged, it would be painfully obvious that many seeming contradictions are due to misunderstanding or lack of full understanding rather than an actual problem. But it is usually never taken to true investigative levels; the smug science worshipers are content to take potshots and crack wise.
There are contradictions at the heart of science as well. Quantum physics uncovers relationships that seem to defy all boundaries of space and time. Gravity and mass become completely disconnected in ways that make no sense at all. Subatomic particles develop synchronous relationships that are unaffected by vast amounts of physical space or any amount of disruptive matter in between. The human brain carries similar contradictions. No one has yet resolved what a 'thought' actually consists of, or whether thoughts can be stored or transported as pure energy, or even what 'thinking' really is.
Contradictions lie at the heart of mathematics also. Bertrand Russell offhandedly came up with subset paradoxes that remain unexplained to this day. Einstein used a different kind of math entirely for his theories, and we are not sure that our current system is the only one or even necessarily a valid one.
Is this really an environment in which God can be dismissed out of hand, where things as basic as mathematics and gravity and thought are filled with bugaboos and flaws? I think not. In fact, the existence of an omniscient, omnipresent being is theoretically viable based on what we already know- or rather what we DON'T know- in fields of quantum theory and consciousness. Science does not disprove God in any way. And philosophical examination of reality shows that He is indeed there, if we don't let our egos and our desire for autonomy get in the way.
You call me 'wrong' Stu, but you don't give a word why. You say I can't prove my beliefs so they are automatically invalid. But you cannot prove your beliefs either. I gave a nutshell case as to why logical positivists are woefully shortsighted, and your response is basically "that's nice, you're wrong." Great rebuttal. You would probably argue that you do not worship anything, but if your feet stand on the bedrock of science alone, that means your faith is in things like progress and electricity. Or if you strive to have faith in nothing, you set yourself up for a self contradictory, nihilistic existence. Whether you choose to be consistent with that choice or not is up to you. I dare say you choose to be inconsistent with chosen nihilism because embracing the nothingness of reality leads to pain and horror if faced fully. As it should when denying the reason for our existence (God).
I believe in God because reality is not logical otherwise. Logic is not logical otherwise. My faith in reason and my faith in God are fully intertwined. Without God there is no reason, in both senses of the phrase.
Don't ask me to 'prove' what cannot be proven, you should know that is folly. I do not ask you to 'prove' your disbelief either, because you cannot do that. And do not suggest that I or anyone else operates on blind faith. It takes a lot more blind faith to be smugly confident that there is nothingness, than it does to conduct a search for meaning and find it.
By the way, though I poke fun at science I am actually a fan of it. I support true science and true inquiry because the more we know, the closer God becomes. Quantum physics is just the tip of the iceberg. If you open your eyes you can see the fingerprints of a rational, sentient creator all over the place. As we get more into the workings of the brain, I am sure we will be fascinated further. Have you ever seen the delicate workings of a human eye? Most amazing.
So don't try to beat down religion with your pseudo-logic sword, Stu. That same sword is wielded powerfully against you. God does not defy logic or run against logic, rather he is at the very heart of it. Truth as an eternal concept was created by Him, it is in the essence of his character. The more we understand of science, the more we understand of reality, the harder it will be to deny the truth. The currents will get stronger and stronger as we move out of our haze, until finally the truth is like a blazing sun.
I didn't mean to get off on a rant here. I just wanted to assure you that the world I live in is very real. I hold no illusions and I will leave no stone unturned when it comes to getting true facts, true understanding of what is actually happening. Delusion is for some but not for me. So don't wave your hand and dismiss me as superstitious or babbling. I strive for consistency and accuracy in everything I believe, and also the ability to fully and logically defend everything I believe. Many do not. They rely on the ho-hum ennui of the world to validate their atheistic, progress oriented yawns. This is not thinking. This is not reality.
I donât really expect to get through to you Stu. But I hope I can at least remove your implied notion that you are rational and I am not. No superstitious hillbilly here, as much as it might ease your mind to believe I am.
dArK, U beN ListEnen 2 YoU-r dEEpoCk cHoPrA tApEs aGen?
:
:hahahaha, what a S2PID post! rhetoric, PURE RHETORIC from a scared little man. me thinks "dark" is afraid of the dark!
dark ...deepocks got nothing over you.do you 2 ever get 2gethor for little chit chats?
dark ...deepocks got nothing over you.do you 2 ever get 2gethor for little chit chats?
darkhorse
great post... really.
the problem is as I see it is that I can query science. I can call it wrong right or just don't know but...I can't query your God, which in my opinion is your superstition, I am not allowed to, without attracting a barrage of how everyone is wrong if they don't belive what you do, from scientists, to the ordinary joe.
If I question anything about your stance I get preached at.
I state that science is flawed so you list a torrent on how science is wrong.
I mention your God is wrong, it's a superstion which is only one of which could get in the way of trading (not to mention how it can mess up peoples' lives) and your response automatically goes into def con 1 mode.That's where the irrational part kicks in big time for me. Its God or nothing for you.. Ok if that helps you feel better but it does nothing to further the understanding and or progress of mankind, not to mention trading.
I completely disagree with you, all you have is blind faith.
Yours is the the type irrationl superstion that this thread theme was based on.
There are all sorts of sceintists, all kinds of joe, all kinds of religion, (yours appears to be fully adjustable......"I think the popular definition of religion is inadequate and does not define my reality." )., but science at least attempts to find out what is, and true science excludes dogma ,opinion or superstition
There's no way I go for your kind of superstition and dare call it reality.
If I were you darkhorse (needless to say I thank goodness I'm not) I would look behind me to see if the pseudo-logic sword you refer to wasn't hurtling towards the back of your own head.
great post... really.
the problem is as I see it is that I can query science. I can call it wrong right or just don't know but...I can't query your God, which in my opinion is your superstition, I am not allowed to, without attracting a barrage of how everyone is wrong if they don't belive what you do, from scientists, to the ordinary joe.
If I question anything about your stance I get preached at.
I state that science is flawed so you list a torrent on how science is wrong.
I mention your God is wrong, it's a superstion which is only one of which could get in the way of trading (not to mention how it can mess up peoples' lives) and your response automatically goes into def con 1 mode.That's where the irrational part kicks in big time for me. Its God or nothing for you.. Ok if that helps you feel better but it does nothing to further the understanding and or progress of mankind, not to mention trading.
I completely disagree with you, all you have is blind faith.
Yours is the the type irrationl superstion that this thread theme was based on.
There are all sorts of sceintists, all kinds of joe, all kinds of religion, (yours appears to be fully adjustable......"I think the popular definition of religion is inadequate and does not define my reality." )., but science at least attempts to find out what is, and true science excludes dogma ,opinion or superstition
There's no way I go for your kind of superstition and dare call it reality.
If I were you darkhorse (needless to say I thank goodness I'm not) I would look behind me to see if the pseudo-logic sword you refer to wasn't hurtling towards the back of your own head.
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it is not wise for the pot to call the Potter a superstition...nor for the little man to reason against the Author of logic; nor for a man who, by virtue of being a man, presumes upon the illusion of certainty more than he is apparently aware, to deride faith as being 'blind;' nor for the man who is but a vapor to stand against the accumulated wisdom of giants and define his own reality; nor to dismiss as a fiction the One from whose imagination all things known and unknown, seen and unseen, past, present and future have sprung; nor to deny the possibility of existence to He who gives purpose to chance; nor to categorically rule out the only Certainty. "The fool says in his heart, 'there is no God.'"
<center> </center>
God made you, God gave you the ability to reason, and your only connection to Him, at this time, is by faith. But you have chosen to deny God and place your faith elsewhere. The very privilege to make that choice is a God given right.
What are the odds?
(Been there, done that. The Good News is that, God willing, it can overcome).
</center>it is not wise for the pot to call the Potter a superstition...nor for the little man to reason against the Author of logic; nor for a man who, by virtue of being a man, presumes upon the illusion of certainty more than he is apparently aware, to deride faith as being 'blind;' nor for the man who is but a vapor to stand against the accumulated wisdom of giants and define his own reality; nor to dismiss as a fiction the One from whose imagination all things known and unknown, seen and unseen, past, present and future have sprung; nor to deny the possibility of existence to He who gives purpose to chance; nor to categorically rule out the only Certainty. "The fool says in his heart, 'there is no God.'"
<center>
</center>God made you, God gave you the ability to reason, and your only connection to Him, at this time, is by faith. But you have chosen to deny God and place your faith elsewhere. The very privilege to make that choice is a God given right.
What are the odds?
(Been there, done that. The Good News is that, God willing, it can overcome).
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