SuperMontage vs. ISLD Hidden Orders

Tony01 · May 17, 2002

I can see hiding reserve, ( show 1000 with 9000 behind), but what's the point of not exposing your price?

IMO hidden orders are mostly used to hide true size.
Ex. For a sell order, show 100 @ 43.90, but have 900 more @ 43.90 or less hidden.

Hidden orders are also used in very liquid stocks as a way to cut in front of another order without their knowing it. This would be done to prevent others from then cutting in front of their order. Anyone who's ever traded QQQ thru ISLD has more than likely been filled at a weird price like 29.096 when the best displayed offer was 29.10

MACD_addy · May 17, 2002

Perhaps it is just my trading style but, I was under the impression that every trader used hidden orders liberally as an integral part of an active trading strategy.

I use hidden orders at least 50% of the time. It allows you to play all kinds of games (shaving in front of someone is just one of the tricks). The downside however is that displayed orders of the same price receive execution priority.

These orders do not show up in the net for ISLD on the level II montage and they do not show up in the Island book. These orders are executed in price priority so stock cannot trade through the price on Island until all orders including hidden are filled.

DayTraderNYC · May 17, 2002

This is interesting. We just got access to execute on ECN's like ARCA, INCA and ISLD...butwe have no way of sending "hidden" orders. I'll have to ask about this. Also, I guess it IS those hidden orders that Im lifting or hitting out when I get better fills than what I saw on the quotes.....Hmmmmm

mike s · May 17, 2002

Originally posted by DayTraderNYC
This is interesting. We just got access to execute on ECN's like ARCA, INCA and ISLD...butwe have no way of sending "hidden" orders. I'll have to ask about this. Also, I guess it IS those hidden orders that Im lifting or hitting out when I get better fills than what I saw on the quotes.....Hmmmmm

Some of them could be hidden but an offer (for example) shaved by a tenth or so and not hidden still shows on the L2 as the whole number.

Rod Shaft · May 17, 2002

Originally posted by mike s

Some of them could be hidden but an offer (for example) shaved by a tenth or so and not hidden still shows on the L2 as the whole number.

It does? Not on my Level 2. Do you mean an ISB or an ISLD?

By the way, I use hidden island bids/offers the majority of the time, especially when trying to dump a position.

vinigar · May 17, 2002

I wonder how these hidden orders work for stops?....Can the market makers see them? I swear to god I 've seen market makers go after my trailing stop or stop the minute I place it.

What software are you guys using that allows you to place these hidden orders? Mine does not have that ability that's for sure.

Is there software that can detect these hidden orders? Maybe somebody out there has been cleaning up!...ie., they have software that can pick up these orders, while everyone else thinks that they are being slick by hiding there orders, they are going to school on you.

mike s · May 17, 2002

Originally posted by Rod Shaft

It does? Not on my Level 2. Do you mean an ISB or an ISLD?

By the way, I use hidden island bids/offers the majority of the time, especially when trying to dump a position.

I was refering to shaved unhidden ISLD bid/offers.

Say for example 25.28x25.30.

If I place an offer (not hidden) on ISLD of 25.299 it'll show on the L2 offer as 25.30. Both side's tickets will show the actual transaction price though.

You're saying your L2 shows three digits to the right of the decimal?

Now you have me doubting

I'll double check Monday.

mike s · May 17, 2002

Originally posted by vinigar
I wonder how these hidden orders work for stops?....Can the market makers see them? I swear to god I 've seen market makers go after my trailing stop or stop the minute I place it.

What software are you guys using that allows you to place these hidden orders? Mine does not have that ability that's for sure.

Is there software that can detect these hidden orders? Maybe somebody out there has been cleaning up!...ie., they have software that can pick up these orders, while everyone else thinks that they are being slick by hiding there orders, they are going to school on you.

I'm using Pointdirex and it has the ability to hide ISLD orders.

My TNMB w/ Realtick doesn't hide ISLD but it will allow hiding of size with ARCA (but you have to show something on Arca).

For me, the hidden ISLD ability is somewhat useful for trying to slip in front of other ISLD traders but generally it's a lot like someone (MM, ARCA, ISLD,REDI, whoever) just hiding size....you know, one or two traders sitting on the offer showing 1 or 10 but hundreds or thousands rip by on T&S. Even though I can see who's sitting there I still don't know how much they have for sale.
At least, that's my take on it so far.

Rod Shaft · May 17, 2002

Originally posted by mike s

I was refering to shaved unhidden ISLD bid/offers.

Say for example 25.28x25.30.

If I place an offer (not hidden) on ISLD of 25.299 it'll show on the L2 offer as 25.30. Both side's tickets will show the actual transaction price though.

You're saying your L2 shows three digits to the right of the decimal?

Now you have me doubting I'll double check Monday.

Really, mine shows the shaved price. Suppose there were 1000 shares (hidden) offered at 25.298, 1000 at 25.299 (unhidden) and 2000 at 25.30 (unhidden). My level 2 would show this:

25.2990 ISB 10
25.3000 ISB 20
25.3000 ISLD 30

Also, time and sales can be a useful tool in identifying where hidden bids/offers are placed.

mike s · May 17, 2002

Originally posted by Rod Shaft

Really, mine shows the shaved price. Suppose there were 1000 shares (hidden) offered at 25.298, 1000 at 25.299 (unhidden) and 2000 at 25.30 (unhidden). My level 2 would show this:

25.2990 ISB 10
25.3000 ISB 20
25.3000 ISLD 30

Also, time and sales can be a useful tool in identifying where hidden bids/offers are placed.

Surprise, surprise!

Neither of my L2s show three digits (not to mention...four!) Maybe I should reread my manuals...then again, four decimal places is probably too much thinking for me.

Do you mind if I ask which software shows this?

Also, what does ISB stand for?

Thanks

ps. I'll bet you also have that secret software that shows hidden orders too