Superior trader, a born talent or can be taught?

It means that using a system that is designed by yourself is likely to work better than using a system that is designed by someone else since it fuses with your personality.

It doesn't exclude a possibility that it can be taught with a condition of the same background and similar personality.

Quote from azmi:

its a combination of both nature and nurture - few if any are "born" traders..and those with so much natural talent can pretty much be good at whatever it is they do

personality plays a large part in trading - the biggest part being in exiting a position. Anyone can enter a trade - little or no guts are involved there - difference comes in how and why you choose your exit - and that is an amalgamation of experience, education, personality, and ofcourse natural "gut" feeling. Aggressive traders might hold in a technical pullback and not get twitched out - they will ofcourse run the risk of large drawdowns and losses and are emotionally prepared to endure them. Passive or risk-averse traders will refused to get twitched out and have quick exits - again a product of their environment or personality. Both styles can be successful - the least successful are ofcourse "cowboys". We always hear of one-hit wonders who made a million one yr but never hear of them losing 2 million the next year.

The best example I can think of - at the risk of upsetting majority of the Elitetrader participants - is Jim Cramer. Out of a 200mio hedge fund he lost 90mio in a span of 6-8 months in 1999 to memory (could be '98 dont quote me), but instead of shutting down the fund and being the "joke" of the street he came back in made 150mio the following 6-8 months. Whatever disregard one may have for his fluffy tv show today - to pull off a feat like this requires alot more than just a harvard MBA and GS experience. Most people I know would have committed suicide.

when i used to be a currency trader with a bank, the best traders in the market werent those with MBA's and quant PHD's but street-smart and hungry kids who could quickly isolate the trades where they were about to do well or get in trouble, (typically overly educated people have rarely done well in trading because they fall victim to analysis/paralysis - ofcourse there are exceptions). But I disagree that any single person can be picked off the street and simply "taught" the ways and means of buying low and selling high if he lacks a natural conviction toward the job

The best trading systems developed will only work so well as long as your personality fuses well with the system - and same system can work rather disagreably with someone with the exact same background but a different personality
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Quote from bitrend:



1. To form a Turtles group, why need the interviews to select candidates since any one can be taught then just pick by random.


I would interview as well. Not for trading ability, but for ethics and character.

The Turtles were given the rules under strict confidence that they would not share them.

They had to be trustworthy.
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Those who claim that trading can be taught usually are trying to sell you a trading course. Trading is a game like chess or poker. Players can easily find the rules and--especially today with universal internet access--can easily get necessary game-playing information: chess players can easily download all historical games, poker players can easily get odds for all combinations, and traders can easily and cheaply get trading data. Why then do some players consistently win while others consistently lose? Why do the same guys end up at the poker final tables; and why do the same guys end up at the top of the chess rankings? Some guys play chess, and some guys play poker, and some guys trade. Read Plato: learning is discovering what we already know. Some of us know how to trade while others will never know. To those who'll never know: keep playing; we need someone to pay our bills and fund our bank accounts.

For those who follow whatever Richard Dennis says, ask yourself this: why did Dennis blow up when he traded upstairs? Keep in mind that dealers' skills are independent of--perhaps even opposed to--position traders' skills. Also, Dennis chose winners: guys who ran companies and guys who were proved expert gamblers. In other words, these guys would've been good traders had they never met Dennis. In other words, these guys discovered knowledge that would've made them winners anyway. In other words, they succeded regardless of Dennis' teaching--perhaps even in spite of his teaching.

If you're a consistent loser and want to save your money, stop trading. If you want to continue to lose at trading and save money, stop buying trading courses and stop listening to gurus.
 
Can trading be taught? My answer is simply no.

Now of course the question is a bit more complicated, so if we ask this way:

Can an average trading system be succesfully taught to any person (meaning anybody who is willing to try it)? Still, the answer is no, noting that there are of course expections.

Of course, there are simpler systems that can be learnt by a bigger % of people, but generally, the average trading system can not be learnt by the average person, most likely because of the psychological effects of trading. Again I am not saying that certain systems can not be succesfully learnt, but most systems can not.

Also, that is possible that you will be a better trader at the end of the course, but that doesn't mean that you can make a living by trading. Just like taking a drawing course, you will be better, but most likely they won't ask you to decorate a churchbuilding...

You don't have to take my word for it, but if you read all 3 of the Market Wizzards book, there are 4 master traders in them, who decided to teach their systems, and only 1 came away with the outcome that it is possible to learn trading. Mind you, most of these tests had a preselected group of students, thus the anybody who is willing to try didn't apply.

Also if you guys read the thread about Woody's room, you can get the feeling, that although Woody is probably making money with his own system, most people trying to learn it don't.
 
This is called "denial of reality".

It took me several years and a hell of a lot of effort, but eventually I did learn to trade, and to manage money (different skills I assure you).

More than a decade later, the forty seven (47) shareholders who kept money at that fund were extremely glad that I did learn. I would imagine they will never have to worry about money again.

The gentleman who trained me is gone, however his methods continue to work year after year. Apparently he was an unusually skilled teacher. Based on the comments on this site, I must be the only person ever to learn to trade.:D

Based on your reasoning, as soon as my generation of traders dies, the markets will have to shut down :D

What a shame.

Steve
 
I agree with you Steve, you can be taught to trade but you must be hungry, passionate and resilient to make it through the beginning stages. Once you have established consistency, even if its only $100 a day, you can certainly build from there, as long as you remain diligent and flexible.

IMHO, you need to be fully dedicated and goal focused to make sure you see your efforts through, otherwise, it seems very easy to lose focus and confidence. Once that is lost, it becomes a very rocky road. I have seen it in the faces of some of our struggling junior traders.

Quote from steve46:

This is called "denial of reality".

It took me several years and a hell of a lot of effort, but eventually I did learn to trade, and to manage money (different skills I assure you).

More than a decade later, the forty seven (47) shareholders who kept money at that fund were extremely glad that I did learn. I would imagine they will never have to worry about money again.

The gentleman who trained me is gone, however his methods continue to work year after year. Apparently he was an unusually skilled teacher. Based on the comments on this site, I must be the only person ever to learn to trade.:D

Based on your reasoning, as soon as my generation of traders dies, the markets will have to shut down :D

What a shame.

Steve
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hey steve, how much money were you managing and what was the performance record if you don't mind me asking? if you don't want to give specifics, how about rounded numbers?

Quote from steve46:

This is called "denial of reality".

It took me several years and a hell of a lot of effort, but eventually I did learn to trade, and to manage money (different skills I assure you).

More than a decade later, the forty seven (47) shareholders who kept money at that fund were extremely glad that I did learn. I would imagine they will never have to worry about money again.

The gentleman who trained me is gone, however his methods continue to work year after year. Apparently he was an unusually skilled teacher. Based on the comments on this site, I must be the only person ever to learn to trade.:D

Based on your reasoning, as soon as my generation of traders dies, the markets will have to shut down :D

What a shame.

Steve
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Quote from energytraderus:

Those who claim that trading can be taught usually are trying to sell you a trading course. Trading is a game like chess or poker.
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Chess and poker can be taught.

There is a reason why the big trading houses like Goldy want young people with absolutely no trading experience. They TRAIN them to do it their way.

I personally have launched three different friends onto trading careers. And no, I do not want any business here. It just amazes me that people don't think it can be taught. It is a skill just like anything else. It helps, of course, if you have a mentor and capital to play with. You are pretty much doomed otherwise.

Jay
 
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