Superior trader, a born talent or can be taught?

Quote from nitro:

Great trading to me means predictive trading by a human being making decisions, where you put a position on, and you repair it, you manipulate other traders, you take a stop loss, you take partial profits, you decide on the bet size. Etc. I am defining it in those terms not because it is a perfect definition by any means, but because that is what 99.1% of anyone that comes into ET will be forced into doing.

With that in mind, I think that I am not coming accross in the way that I planned.
nitro
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Just in response to this as a response to what I posted, I came to this conversation late and may have misinterpreted or assumed something that was not there; apologies if I confused the issue somewhat (I think I got nitro's and thunder's views reversed :)).

Your last post comes across pretty clearly, especially from your angle of what ET or individual traders are limited to; sometimes, "feel" is all we really have to work with, or at least is what finally gets us to pull the trigger, given that our access as individuals to information is less than ideal to say the least. We cannot play the same game on the same level as the street, but the tape that "doesn't feel right" due to the trader or institution quietly trying to unload/ build a large position against the grain of the current move can sometimes be our only tradable "echo" of the actual supply/demand impetus.
 
Quote from Thunderdog:

Actually, I am just using my brain in the best way that I know how. I suppose that you are doing the same.

Don't take you as an example, take Soros? Are you taking everything he says literally? OK. Are you putting yourself on par with him and his particular quirks? OK.


"LMAO?" As an aside, your arrogance is becoming legendary. I hope it serves you well.
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yes, soros is being very literal in his statement .

my friend has done extensive research into this phenomena in an attempt to quantify same. here's a talk i had with her not so long ago:

http://www.tradingmarkets.com/tm.site/swingtrading/education/satinterview/01312005-42195.cfm

more info:

http://www.marketfocusing.com/downloads/soros1.pdf

once again dog, you are commenting on things you truly have no concept of whatsoever.

best wishes,

surfer
 
Quote from easyguru:

We live in an optimist culture where people are made to believe that anything is possible and everything can be learned if you put in enough effort or get the right teacher/guru/mentor you will learn anything.

Its almost sacrilege to say some people are born gifted or have inborn talent for something. Trading is one such profession along with many others.

There is an X-factor that superior traders have which is very difficult to explain but you know when you see it. That is why most attempts at teaching to trade fail.

The teachers/mentors/gurus would not like to admit this as it is fundamentally against their world views, business interest and their over powering need to have followers.

Superior traders have a world view about markets they trade and life in general which is different from those of ordinary traders and it has nothing to do with whether their style is quantitative based or qualitative based.

Even if you were to be taught by a superior trader you may not get his world view unless you are gifted. Given a same market situation or quantitative data the Superior trader interprets it differently than the ordinary trader.

Sooner or later most trader realise it in their heart, but many may not want to accept it. Till then the illusion is very mesmerizing.
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I agree with most of what you are saying, especially about the motivations of the commercial gurus/mentors and those of their ilk. However, let us put a finer point on it. I have no doubt that there are "natural born traders" out there, probably in very small number. Presumably, they would regard the decision making criteria that the rest of us use as children's toys. But now what? Are you saying that anyone who was not born with prodigious trading acumen need not apply? Are only the natural prodigies making good money in the markets? Is any other possibility the "illusion" that you refer to in your last sentence? How many people who succeed in their chosen occupations were necessarily "naturally born" for it? I agree that trading profitably can be a difficult and challenging thing to do, but must we elevate and aggrandize it out of proportion and beyond all recognition? Learning to trade profitably with any consistency takes real work for most people. I think that, among the people who fail, many of them never really knew what real work is, or they have forgotten. They underestimate the task. I suspect that most other undertakings are not nearly as underestimated.
 
You are all missing the point. Ofcourse trading can be learned. The X factor is in the cut off of someone intelligence and psychological traits.

Can an average person with average IQ be taught to trade successfully? Ofcourse. How fast that can be accomplished directly correlates with that persons mental attributes.

Can a person residing in "Happy Acres" with a brain disorder be taught to trade.... no.

Can a 80 yr old man with an above average IQ that is set like concrete in his mental ways be thought to trade...... no.

Even a chimp can be taught to trade.... in around 50 million years time or so.

Only when there is a "wrench" stuck in the mental wheels of development in someone's brain is someone unable to learn.

Learning means learn yourself first... learn how you think... then and only then can you adapt to learn the mkts.

Until then..... you are not ready to receive.

Example: I stopped trading YM about 5 weeks ago because i was loosing $$ (it was less then 2%)... and some have said that i stopped to soon. I didn't need to loose any more to know that i was not ready to receive.
 
Quote from Thunderdog:

I agree with most of what you are saying, especially about the motivations of the commercial gurus/mentors and those of their ilk. However, let us put a finer point on it. I have no doubt that there are "natural born traders" out there, probably in very small number. Presumably, they would regard the decision making criteria that the rest of us use as children's toys. But now what? Are you saying that anyone who was not born with prodigious trading acumen need not apply? Are only the natural prodigies making good money in the markets? Is any other possibility the "illusion" that you refer to in your last sentence? How many people who succeed in their chosen occupations were necessarily "naturally born" for it? I agree that trading profitably can be a difficult and challenging thing to do, but must we elevate and aggrandize it out of proportion and beyond all recognition? Learning to trade profitably with any consistency takes real work for most people. I think that, among the people who fail, many of them never really knew what real work is, or they have forgotten. They underestimate the task. I suspect that most other undertakings are not nearly as underestimated.
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My comment is in the context of the discussion so far where there are the arguments:

1 If you follow my methodology, software, discipline, market understanding, routine, mentor, drills, etc. you will be superior trader.
2 I don't want to believe that the Superior trader are born gifted. I will just work harder at my trading or find someone who will make me successful. As one poster put it " I'll have to vote for the ability of superior trading talent to be taught. Any other belief on my part is non-resourceful and self defeating"


There is vast difference between superior trader and ordinary trader in their performance and one has to accept that. With acceptance comes realistic expectations. Which leads to enjoying the process better and with that acceptance one can improve on existing performance or look for other options.
 
Quote from easyguru:

There is vast difference between superior trader and ordinary trader in their performance and one has to accept that. With acceptance comes realistic expectations. Which leads to enjoying the process better and with that acceptance one can improve on existing performance or look for other options.
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Fair enough. I agree.
 
Quote from marketsurfer:

yes, soros is being very literal in his statement .

my friend has done extensive research into this phenomena in an attempt to quantify same. here's a talk i had with her not so long ago:

http://www.tradingmarkets.com/tm.site/swingtrading/education/satinterview/01312005-42195.cfm

more info:

http://www.marketfocusing.com/downloads/soros1.pdf

once again dog, you are commenting on things you truly have no concept of whatsoever.

best wishes,

surfer
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I thought I would just leave you with the remark in my last post to you in this thread, which was fitting enough, but I feel I should comment on your post.

I have read 3 books written by George Soros, and I came away with 3 impressions. First, Mr. Soros is a very intelligent man. There is no denying this fact. Second, Mr. Soros is quite full of himself. In his defense, if anyone has that right then he certainly does. And third, Mr. Soros is not averse to attention and publicity.

Against this background, the famous backache makes good copy. It may or may not have occurred as presented. I'm indifferent either way. He may or may not use such cues with any regularity. I'm indifferent either way. But there is no denying that it makes good copy. So much so, that everyone now wants to be just like George Soros, but in a hurry. So much so, that Ph.D.s now have web sites offering services so that you can get your back (or whatever) to speak to you, too, while trading. Move over, Larry, there's a new guru in town.

Of course, the more frugal among us can spend under $10 and buy the original book that introduced the concept to the mainstream:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/05...f=pd_bbs_1/102-4848341-7476111?_encoding=UTF8

I read it years ago. I do not attribute it to the improvement in my trading performance. If you have read it, or if you plan to do so in the future, please let me know if and how it improved your trading performance. I will keep an open mind.
 
Quote from kalzayani:

Can be good trader by talent...
superior traders are self made..
someone has messed with them in the past
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Damn, that sounds good! I don't know if it's true, but it resonates.
:)
 
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