I would do nothing but daytrade. But again I trade ES futures and I absolutely hate to hold overnight and then again for days. BUT there is one thing absolutely for sure. You have to know EXACTLY what you want to be. either a mechanical trader or a intuitive trader. if you flip flop between those two, you are dead. and IMO keep yourself specializing in few symbols. IMHO
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Stupidist decision I ever made.
- Thread starter spect8or
- Start date
Quote from spect8or:
There have been quite a few, so it wasn't easy to choose, but I'd have to go with "choosing to daytrade for a living".
This is an incredibly stupid decision to make. The odds of success in daytrading for a living (its time intensive nature pretty much means you'll have to do it for a living) are so stacked against you it's not funny.
I am no idiot, mind you; far from it. I even made money one year. Not your "$2000/day avg", not even $500, but an income that I'm unlikely to see working for a wage for a while yet.
Still, as the bible says, "..time and chance happen to them all".
I don't care what anyone says, daytrading for a living is lousy deal whatever way you cut it. Yeah, sure, there are some people that can make money at it, year after year after year, but they are raaaaaaare, and for all intents and purposes, you won't be one of them. Not a pretty picture, I know. And of those that are, it's a statistical certainty that some of them are by virtue of luck alone; markets may be a lot less random than academics believe, but they're a lot more random than traders believe.
Don't misunderstand, I'm not railing against all trading. Not at all. I still maintain a great interest in the markets. Only that choosing to make your livelihood from trading the markets is, for the vast majority of people, about as bad a career move as you can make.
Wow, no offense but this sounds like a rant of a LOSER.
Well it's obvious you never really made much money trading so that may be a hint that maybe trading is not for you.
There are quite a few very profitable traders and they are not rare. You just have not explored or looked around for them.
The odds are against the most in trading because most people are simply not meant to succeed. You seem like one of those people. Why would that make trading a bad career move? What is better, getting a degree, working for corporate for a year and then get laid off just to be unable to find a new job for years?
Quote from spect8or:
There have been quite a few, so it wasn't easy to choose, but I'd have to go with "choosing to daytrade for a living".
This is an incredibly stupid decision to make. The odds of success in daytrading for a living (its time intensive nature pretty much means you'll have to do it for a living) are so stacked against you it's not funny.
I am no idiot, mind you; far from it. I even made money one year. Not your "$2000/day avg", not even $500, but an income that I'm unlikely to see working for a wage for a while yet.
Still, as the bible says, "..time and chance happen to them all".
I don't care what anyone says, daytrading for a living is lousy deal whatever way you cut it. Yeah, sure, there are some people that can make money at it, year after year after year, but they are raaaaaaare, and for all intents and purposes, you won't be one of them. Not a pretty picture, I know. And of those that are, it's a statistical certainty that some of them are by virtue of luck alone; markets may be a lot less random than academics believe, but they're a lot more random than traders believe.
Don't misunderstand, I'm not railing against all trading. Not at all. I still maintain a great interest in the markets. Only that choosing to make your livelihood from trading the markets is, for the vast majority of people, about as bad a career move as you can make.
A refreshing piece of reality for the new breed.
nice one Spec, Kap
view your problems as tests. don't let the market filter you out.
anything desirable is so because most don't have it/it is rare..think of a private jet. if everyone had one, people wouldn't care because everyone would have them. go after what most people don't have or can't do. however, by doing this, u will NOT BE THINKING LIKE THE MAJORITY AND MUST IGNORE ATTACKS FROM THE MAJORITY.
as anything rare is desirable, it should by default be difficult to achieve by the typical person or approach, therefore, problems ARE TESTS. the tests are barricades to success for most people (filters). you must always go past obstacles, no matter how hard, how many failures, or whatever. this is how you succeed. think of your sacrifices. ask yourself how many people would press on at your low points. recognize not many and move forward. it was a test. many people would quit there.
ALSO, great things may take time. some actors work 10 years before they're big. yeah, some get lucky, but if everything great was quick and easy, everyone would do it (and it wouldn't be desirable anymore). EVERYTHING PROBABLY HAS A AVERAGE TIME/AMOUNT OF WORK/KNOWLEDGE ASSOCIATED WITH IT. say to be a trader it takes on average 5 years....this is because most people will quit or wipe out within 5 years.....or maybe it takes 5 years of knowledge to beat the crowd. i hope you get my idea.....
anything desirable is so because most don't have it/it is rare..think of a private jet. if everyone had one, people wouldn't care because everyone would have them. go after what most people don't have or can't do. however, by doing this, u will NOT BE THINKING LIKE THE MAJORITY AND MUST IGNORE ATTACKS FROM THE MAJORITY.
as anything rare is desirable, it should by default be difficult to achieve by the typical person or approach, therefore, problems ARE TESTS. the tests are barricades to success for most people (filters). you must always go past obstacles, no matter how hard, how many failures, or whatever. this is how you succeed. think of your sacrifices. ask yourself how many people would press on at your low points. recognize not many and move forward. it was a test. many people would quit there.
ALSO, great things may take time. some actors work 10 years before they're big. yeah, some get lucky, but if everything great was quick and easy, everyone would do it (and it wouldn't be desirable anymore). EVERYTHING PROBABLY HAS A AVERAGE TIME/AMOUNT OF WORK/KNOWLEDGE ASSOCIATED WITH IT. say to be a trader it takes on average 5 years....this is because most people will quit or wipe out within 5 years.....or maybe it takes 5 years of knowledge to beat the crowd. i hope you get my idea.....
Quote from Mecro:
Wow, no offense but this sounds like a rant of a LOSER.
Well it's obvious you never really made much money trading so that may be a hint that maybe trading is not for you.
There are quite a few very profitable traders and they are not rare. You just have not explored or looked around for them.
The odds are against the most in trading because most people are simply not meant to succeed. You seem like one of those people. Why would that make trading a bad career move? What is better, getting a degree, working for corporate for a year and then get laid off just to be unable to find a new job for years?
I've noted this before, mecro, you do so remind of myself!
Daytraders, most daytraders, the overwhelming majority of them, are bound to fail because -- among many other reasons -- they need to make money; clearly, otherwise there is no income from anywhere. This need to make money also causes them to ignore the (rather obvious, I now think) realities of the game they are involved in, relying instead on unrepresentative examples and wishful thinking.
Spect8tor,
Just curious, how much did you pay in annual commissions? The reason I ask this is because what a lot of people don't understand about daytrading is, if it's done right, it's very commission intensive. Because of that your margins for profit are very very thin. Someone in here mentioned starting a restaurant, this is not a good analogy. If you are a very active trader, you will generate anywhere from 4 times to 20 times the monthly overhead to maintain a restaurant and a restaurant has positive cash flow. It may not be profitable, but it has cash flow, big difference.
So I'm curious how actively you traded during your busiest year and what your total annual commissions were.
Mav
Just curious, how much did you pay in annual commissions? The reason I ask this is because what a lot of people don't understand about daytrading is, if it's done right, it's very commission intensive. Because of that your margins for profit are very very thin. Someone in here mentioned starting a restaurant, this is not a good analogy. If you are a very active trader, you will generate anywhere from 4 times to 20 times the monthly overhead to maintain a restaurant and a restaurant has positive cash flow. It may not be profitable, but it has cash flow, big difference.
So I'm curious how actively you traded during your busiest year and what your total annual commissions were.
Mav
Well when you are as undecapped as 90% of the traders who attempt to make a go at this are, and you need to avg 10% a month just to make your nut then all the Anthony Robbins think positive pshyco-babble nonsene in the world will not help you escape your inevitable fate... [/QUOTE]
Agree with you 100%. Capitalization and risk management are vital to the career. Thats when knowing about the oppurtunities that are out there working for hedgefunds vs prop trading vs being self capitalized comes in. We need to set ourselves up for success, not failure. Comming in with too little capital or buying power is setting up failure.
One area people don't give enough attention to is living expenses, if they're too high, its a setting for failure too.
'Sophisticated' or not, being positive and comming in to each trading day with the right attitude, around the right people, concentrating on the fundamentals *every day*, is preparation for success.
How many times have you seen your trading performance go down because the others on the trading floor were losing money? Ever notice that sitting close to a winning trader makes you trade better?
When you talk to a successful trader, what do they talk about? Definitely not about how hard trading is or how bad the failure rate is. You talk to a failing trader, and thats all they talk about.
We all know that trading is hard, and most people fail. It would be foolish saying otherwise or that a positive attitude is all you need. But what's the use of hammering home how hard the job is when we all know that its very hard?
Lets not dwell on failure and put our energies into becoming better traders.
Agree with you 100%. Capitalization and risk management are vital to the career. Thats when knowing about the oppurtunities that are out there working for hedgefunds vs prop trading vs being self capitalized comes in. We need to set ourselves up for success, not failure. Comming in with too little capital or buying power is setting up failure.
One area people don't give enough attention to is living expenses, if they're too high, its a setting for failure too.
Quote from spect8or:
LOL! I like to think we're a tad more sophisticated than that here, but I'm sure you'll snag someone.
'Sophisticated' or not, being positive and comming in to each trading day with the right attitude, around the right people, concentrating on the fundamentals *every day*, is preparation for success.
How many times have you seen your trading performance go down because the others on the trading floor were losing money? Ever notice that sitting close to a winning trader makes you trade better?
When you talk to a successful trader, what do they talk about? Definitely not about how hard trading is or how bad the failure rate is. You talk to a failing trader, and thats all they talk about.
We all know that trading is hard, and most people fail. It would be foolish saying otherwise or that a positive attitude is all you need. But what's the use of hammering home how hard the job is when we all know that its very hard?
Lets not dwell on failure and put our energies into becoming better traders.
Quote from Virtuoso:
or perhaps reality central... are you trading for a living yet qwik?
here is a link to my story..
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...670&perpage=6&highlight=my story&pagenumber=6
i took a day job about a year ago with a company that i had previously worked for.. (my only job other than trading since Nov 99).. i had some personal issues that were affecting my trading performance and i decided to step back, take the pressure off and trade at night.. i will be cutting the job in a few weeks..
i love trading.. i love waking up in the morning and waiting for the first bar to begin printing on the open.. and i love sitting and watching a setup form while i plot my entry.. the movements of the market fascinate me, like a wild dance by beautiful women whose steps i cant predict, but if i observe carefully, i can discern their meaning..
-qwik
Quote from spect8or:
I've noted this before, mecro, you do so remind of myself!
Daytraders, most daytraders, the overwhelming majority of them, are bound to fail because -- among many other reasons -- they need to make money; clearly, otherwise there is no income from anywhere. This need to make money also causes them to ignore the (rather obvious, I now think) realities of the game they are involved in, relying instead on unrepresentative examples and wishful thinking.
Yeh, I think this is a wonderful thread. Most newbies and even experienced people should READ and beware of the difficulties of daytrading.
It's nontrivial to say the least! And stop dreamin' and wake up to reality!