Be ware or i am gonna call you stupid again
strike on iraq
- Thread starter ElCubano
- Start date
>you are twisting what I've said and what the US did.
I dont think so. My comments follow each of your comments.
>First, the US (NATO) did not attack civilians. It attacked the >Milosovic machinery of evil.
>Unfortunately some innocent lives were lost. That is the hard >and sad fact of war (bombs don't recognize innocence).
>Contrary to what you imply, NATO was not targeting innocent >civilians. They were targeting Milosovic's military.
I said they were bombed and died. I agree the attack was on the whole entity.
BUT some areas with a high civilian population and NO tactical targets (ie : couple of lone snipers can not be enough to justify a large scale bombing on a civilian area) were bombed, in order to make a statement, just like in any war, Dresden during WWII comes to mind.
>I simply don't understand what you are saying. Are you stating >that since innocent lives may be lost we should not enter into >war at all under any conditions? I'm just trying to understand you.
I say : do NOT kill civilians if possible, even if you have a judgement on them, and you consider them 'evil'.
>Next, the analogy that I used was me going over and stopping >a thug beating up an old lady. You twisted this to me going to >his house and beating or killing his family.
I never >said that.
If you bomb a military target (stop the thug), you are ok with me.
If you bomb a 95%+ civilian area (kill wife and kids) you are not.
Nothing to understand, it is just a moral consideration, from my viewpoint.
>I don't really understand why you did this (twist my words and >put words in my mouth)
So, I did not twist anything or put words in your mouth.
Just addressing your first reply, and explaining you that the situation was not as manichean as you seems to believe.
OHLC
I dont think so. My comments follow each of your comments.
>First, the US (NATO) did not attack civilians. It attacked the >Milosovic machinery of evil.
>Unfortunately some innocent lives were lost. That is the hard >and sad fact of war (bombs don't recognize innocence).
>Contrary to what you imply, NATO was not targeting innocent >civilians. They were targeting Milosovic's military.
I said they were bombed and died. I agree the attack was on the whole entity.
BUT some areas with a high civilian population and NO tactical targets (ie : couple of lone snipers can not be enough to justify a large scale bombing on a civilian area) were bombed, in order to make a statement, just like in any war, Dresden during WWII comes to mind.
>I simply don't understand what you are saying. Are you stating >that since innocent lives may be lost we should not enter into >war at all under any conditions? I'm just trying to understand you.
I say : do NOT kill civilians if possible, even if you have a judgement on them, and you consider them 'evil'.
>Next, the analogy that I used was me going over and stopping >a thug beating up an old lady. You twisted this to me going to >his house and beating or killing his family.
I never >said that. If you bomb a military target (stop the thug), you are ok with me.
If you bomb a 95%+ civilian area (kill wife and kids) you are not.
Nothing to understand, it is just a moral consideration, from my viewpoint.
>I don't really understand why you did this (twist my words and >put words in my mouth)
So, I did not twist anything or put words in your mouth.
Just addressing your first reply, and explaining you that the situation was not as manichean as you seems to believe.
OHLC
the same was done by a palestinian who gave his organs to an israeli... and yes this is a very good thing...
But there are good people in both sides ... and what I said before is that the leaders are corrupt and that a guy like Sharon is a dangerous man... Hope you understood that and not that I wanted Israel to be destroyed and that kind of fluff...
But there are good people in both sides ... and what I said before is that the leaders are corrupt and that a guy like Sharon is a dangerous man... Hope you understood that and not that I wanted Israel to be destroyed and that kind of fluff...
Babak, the reply I was addressing is :
>>
somehow I don't think you would be saying that if you were one of the thousands that were saved from concentration camps as a result of the removal of Milosovic from power by the US bombing.
But hey, to each his own!
If you think stoping a genocidal maniac is terrorism then we have different definitions of terrorism.
>>
My point is that political considerations made the NATO attacks very different from a Peacekeeping mission.
A political judgement deemed some people good and some people evil. Some 'evil' civilians were killed, for political reasons, not as war casualties.
OHLC
>>
somehow I don't think you would be saying that if you were one of the thousands that were saved from concentration camps as a result of the removal of Milosovic from power by the US bombing.
But hey, to each his own!
If you think stoping a genocidal maniac is terrorism then we have different definitions of terrorism.
>>
My point is that political considerations made the NATO attacks very different from a Peacekeeping mission.
A political judgement deemed some people good and some people evil. Some 'evil' civilians were killed, for political reasons, not as war casualties.
OHLC
Don't even know where to start with this ridiculous post. My wife is afraid? Yes, she is afraid of attending more funerals. She would love to see Sharon gone. Indeed he provoked the palestinians. But as I said before, the voters in Israel have been convinced that the palestinians can only understand an iron hand. The Israelis are afraid to have a moderate in power, even though most Israelis themselves ARE moderate. This is what you don't get. The Israeli people want PEACE. But they know that until Arafat is gone, there is NO CHANCE of peace. Arafat has no desire for peace. He has proven it again and again despite what you say, think or have been "brainwashed" to believe.
Now I BRING THE SAME ARGUMENT DAY AFTER DAY????? Gee, I could write your posts for you. Do you know what the expression "broken record" means? We all know what you are going to say before you say it. Believe me. If you don't, why don't you start a new thread with a poll. See what percentage of the readers here think they can predict your every response.
Violence leads to more violence. Very astute. But how do you deal with a never ending death threat? That is what Israel has been dealing with since day one.
Why have you not EVER responded to the question I and others have asked here: What was the declared intent of the Arab states that attacked Israel in 1948? 56? 67? 73? Why not tell us? Of course we all know the answer, but it will be interesting to see how you will justify it.
Also, I asked you but you did not respond to the following: What was the benefit of Germany conspiring with the Palestinian terrorists in hijacking the airplane that was transporting the Munich Olympic murderers? Was this a wise move? I am sure you will tell me that the Israeli Mossad was the villian in that fiasco for hunting down those animals. And Germany was a proud nation standing up to terrorism (hahahahaha.....) So stop being delusional. Israel wants peace. But no matter what they try, no matter what they offer, it is never enough for Arafat and the Hamas and the other murderers. Yeah, blame it all on Sharon. He must be paying the families of suicide bombers to that kill innocent civilians. He must be the one in it so he can be a billionaire among a constituency of illiterate hateful uneducated people that rejoice in the deaths of people sitting in their offices having a cup of coffee in the World Trade Center.
Wake up. Violence does breed violence. But would you be violent if you lived every day with not just a gun to your head, but guns aimed at every part of your anatomy. And your children.
And for the last time...Why did the Arab nations not accept the "palestinians"? Why were they forced to live in settlement tent cities? Why couldn't they be assimilated into those arab countries? And WHY COULD THEY NOT MAKE JORDAN THEIR HOMELAND AS THE JEWS DID IN ISRAEL???? Too much work? Why bother? Just wait out the Jews and then take what they have built? A lot easier (on paper) than actually making an effort on their own. Too bad the plan did not take into consideration that people will defend the lives and the lands they created.
You are right. I am repeating myself. But only because you refuse to answer these same questions. I know you are too smart to argue the unarguable, so you just ignore the questions. You know that the Palestinians (who are generally good people) have been "brainwashed" to believe all their ills can be blamed on the jews. It is the Jew's fault that the Syrians didn't want Palestinians in their country. It is the Jew;s fault the Lebonese didn't want them. Or the Saudis. Or the Egyptians. No one wanted them. But it was the Jew's fault. So Israel must be destroyed. They are the evil rogue state. Your are so clearly right
And so open minded and so objective. And the funny thing is, you say you are not biased. That you believe in peace and harmony and freedom of all faiths and beliefs and you believe in democracy and justice and on and on.
But only Sharon is a bad guy (and I agree...he is). But Arafat and Saddam and the rest are just misunderstood good guys. And only the US thinks they are dangerous.
So come to the US and see for yourself how absorbed we are on a day to day basis with how much we hate the Arabs. How much time we spend persecuting them.
Wake up. There are certainly more Arabs living in Detroit alone than in all of the west bank. And there are more "palestinians" living on one block in New York than there are in all of Syria. Because they are treated better in NY than in Damascus. But don't let facts interfere with your "objective" observations. Just keep cutting and pasting op-ed pieces from the anti Israel, and anti American commentators. Forget the fact that the Arabs that actually come here are welcome here. And they come here because for the majority of them, it is better to drive a taxi in manhatten than to be a "business man" in Bahgdad or Damascus or Beirut. You judge the US and you have never set foot here. You judge Israel but you have never been there either. I have been here, I have been in Israel. I have been in Egypt. But I can not go to Syria because my passport has been stamped. My best friend is Syrian. He fled, his family fled. They were there for 200 years. But they were not permitted to take their property with them. Same with the Persians that left Iran.
The intent of the Arab attacks are very si:mple they were there to support palestinians that were and that are still oppressed by the Israeli occupier... Do you understand that...
How many does this rogue state must violate... Whatever you may say the rpoves are there... Israel is certainly the country that has the most violated international law and yes Sharon is a killer ... and Israeli made the biggest mistake by voting a guy that killed 15,000 palestinians... What is sad is that you have no respect for palestinian.. I have respect for Israeli lives...
But one thing is sure Sharon is a murderer and he is violating interntional law...
Concerning Arafat, he is not perfect but he never commited a crime as important as Sabra and Chatila and he is not even comparable by far to Sharon... You cannot compare a guy that caused a genocide and a guy that worked as a resistant for his own people
How many does this rogue state must violate... Whatever you may say the rpoves are there... Israel is certainly the country that has the most violated international law and yes Sharon is a killer ... and Israeli made the biggest mistake by voting a guy that killed 15,000 palestinians... What is sad is that you have no respect for palestinian.. I have respect for Israeli lives...
But one thing is sure Sharon is a murderer and he is violating interntional law...
Concerning Arafat, he is not perfect but he never commited a crime as important as Sabra and Chatila and he is not even comparable by far to Sharon... You cannot compare a guy that caused a genocide and a guy that worked as a resistant for his own people
Imagine a place with a governing body to make laws and a court system to interpret them but with no police force to enforce the laws. Without force the laws become irrelevant to the criminals and the government becomes irrelevant. Sadam definitly understands this (about force) but the UN is having a hard time with it.
Why couldn't they be assimilated into those arab countries?
Because Palestine is their country not Jordan not Syria not Irak⦠Do you understand that or are you a fanatic settler???? They lived there for hundred years. It has nothing to do with being Arab⦠you know what being Arab means???? Speak Arabic.. thatâs the definition⦠there is not an Arab race⦠all the Arab countries are inhabited by different people⦠an Iraqi is not an Egyptian not a Moroccan not an Algerian ⦠have you read history and all the civilization of the Mediterranean sea???? it is a multitude of people the only link between all those people is their language because before Arabic was like English today .. the most used language on planet earth⦠Look at the United kingdom. They speak the same language and yet Scottish donât like English and English donât like Irish⦠so it has nothing to do with the Arab it has to do with the fact that it is their country and that the settler illegally took their land⦠so Israel has to comply with international law⦠there are many other examplesâ¦
The other point and it is not negligible is that it is a holy place for Christian and Muslim Palestinian (Bethlehem and al Quods) not only for the Jews⦠This place is very important for all the monotheist religion â¦
But only Sharon is a bad guy (and I agree...he is). But Arafat and Saddam and the rest are just misunderstood good guys. And only the US thinks they are dangerous.
Have I said that ???? no ⦠but yes Sharon is an evil guy and yes the Israeli should never ever have voted for him⦠this guy is a Hitler for Palestinian and should be in prison not a prime minister ok you got that⦠I cannot understand that if Israelis want peace they voted for a guy they knew made terrible things and killed 15,000 palestinian and if you consider that Arafat is worse that Sharon then you really consider that a Palestinian live is much much cheaper than an Israeli one and it shows that you are racist even if you donât openly say it⦠I consider that an Israeli life equals a Palestinian lifeâ¦
Wake up. There are certainly more Arabs living in Detroit alone than in all of the west bank. And there are more "palestinians" living on one block in New York than there are in all of Syria.
Yes there are many Arabs in the US but there are also many Italian French Irish Jews, Chinese east European â¦â¦ So stop your fluff⦠if they are in the US it is certainly because it is a great country and I kept on repeating it . it is evident that you were a politician⦠and one thing is sure it is thanks to all those immigrants from all over the world that the USA is a great country.. and the majority of those people quit the oppression and injustice in their own country and it was not only the Arabs⦠Irish , Italian Jews Chinese all those people quit their country to have a better life than in the US⦠what is sad is that you have those people that quit the oppression and that finance settlers in Israel or the Irish in NY that finance the IRAâ¦
So to make things clear⦠I am pro American and anti Bush policies⦠is that better ⦠and I am pro a peace between Israelis and Palestinians but certainly anti Sharon⦠Is it clear or are you going to make a new invention that will go in your favourâ¦
Rs7, I donât fucking care being right wrong or anything else.. but I cannot let you know that because Israelis are worried justifies the terrorist attacks of the Israeli state and the violation of all the UN resolutions. And if you were really a man of peace statistics are clear may be Israelis voted Sharon because they were worried but they lade a big mistake never before the killings were as important as with this guy you get that donât blame Arafat he was there before and it is the arrival of the butcher Sharon that increased the killings in both sides unfortunately.. if you donât understand than then sorry ..
Because Palestine is their country not Jordan not Syria not Irak⦠Do you understand that or are you a fanatic settler???? They lived there for hundred years. It has nothing to do with being Arab⦠you know what being Arab means???? Speak Arabic.. thatâs the definition⦠there is not an Arab race⦠all the Arab countries are inhabited by different people⦠an Iraqi is not an Egyptian not a Moroccan not an Algerian ⦠have you read history and all the civilization of the Mediterranean sea???? it is a multitude of people the only link between all those people is their language because before Arabic was like English today .. the most used language on planet earth⦠Look at the United kingdom. They speak the same language and yet Scottish donât like English and English donât like Irish⦠so it has nothing to do with the Arab it has to do with the fact that it is their country and that the settler illegally took their land⦠so Israel has to comply with international law⦠there are many other examplesâ¦
The other point and it is not negligible is that it is a holy place for Christian and Muslim Palestinian (Bethlehem and al Quods) not only for the Jews⦠This place is very important for all the monotheist religion â¦
But only Sharon is a bad guy (and I agree...he is). But Arafat and Saddam and the rest are just misunderstood good guys. And only the US thinks they are dangerous.
Have I said that ???? no ⦠but yes Sharon is an evil guy and yes the Israeli should never ever have voted for him⦠this guy is a Hitler for Palestinian and should be in prison not a prime minister ok you got that⦠I cannot understand that if Israelis want peace they voted for a guy they knew made terrible things and killed 15,000 palestinian and if you consider that Arafat is worse that Sharon then you really consider that a Palestinian live is much much cheaper than an Israeli one and it shows that you are racist even if you donât openly say it⦠I consider that an Israeli life equals a Palestinian lifeâ¦
Wake up. There are certainly more Arabs living in Detroit alone than in all of the west bank. And there are more "palestinians" living on one block in New York than there are in all of Syria.
Yes there are many Arabs in the US but there are also many Italian French Irish Jews, Chinese east European â¦â¦ So stop your fluff⦠if they are in the US it is certainly because it is a great country and I kept on repeating it . it is evident that you were a politician⦠and one thing is sure it is thanks to all those immigrants from all over the world that the USA is a great country.. and the majority of those people quit the oppression and injustice in their own country and it was not only the Arabs⦠Irish , Italian Jews Chinese all those people quit their country to have a better life than in the US⦠what is sad is that you have those people that quit the oppression and that finance settlers in Israel or the Irish in NY that finance the IRAâ¦
So to make things clear⦠I am pro American and anti Bush policies⦠is that better ⦠and I am pro a peace between Israelis and Palestinians but certainly anti Sharon⦠Is it clear or are you going to make a new invention that will go in your favourâ¦
Rs7, I donât fucking care being right wrong or anything else.. but I cannot let you know that because Israelis are worried justifies the terrorist attacks of the Israeli state and the violation of all the UN resolutions. And if you were really a man of peace statistics are clear may be Israelis voted Sharon because they were worried but they lade a big mistake never before the killings were as important as with this guy you get that donât blame Arafat he was there before and it is the arrival of the butcher Sharon that increased the killings in both sides unfortunately.. if you donât understand than then sorry ..
Also, I asked you but you did not respond to the following: What was the benefit of Germany conspiring with the Palestinian terrorists in hijacking the airplane that was transporting the Munich Olympic murderers? Was this a wise move? I am sure you will tell me that the Israeli Mossad was the villian in that fiasco for hunting down those animals. And Germany was a proud nation standing up to terrorism (hahahahaha.....) So stop being delusional. Israel wants peace. But no matter what they try, no matter what they offer, it is never enough for Arafat and the Hamas and the other murderers.
How many people were killed 15,000 Israelis ???? how do you want me to respect your view if you have the most complete disrespect for Palestinians killed.. innocent civilians are not only Israelis contrary to your beliefs they are also Palestinians.. concerning that whole story I was quite young at that time but what is sure is that Jews were respected in my country and not humiliated like Palestinians are in their own countryâ¦
Yeah, blame it all on Sharon. He must be paying the families of suicide bombers to that kill innocent civilians. He must be the one in it so he can be a billionaire among a constituency of illiterate hateful uneducated people that rejoice in the deaths of people sitting in their offices having a cup of coffee in the World Trade Center.
1/ Sharon is a terrorist and a killer and for me he is no better than the suicide bombers
2/ are you sure that the bombers are just uneducated I donât think so.. The young girl that blew herself was educated and many others were⦠those bombings are not necessarily made by crazy fanatics that is what you donât understand but by people like you and me that have no hope and if you donât understand that simple thing then there is a problem⦠I talked last time of the American guy who killed 9 people including his wife and his children after losing all his money day trading⦠It was just money man!!! only fucking money!!!! and that guy made this crazy thing.. So imagine being a Palestinian today and being humiliated on a day to day basis your father or brother killed and your house destroyed donât you think that his reaction will be the same as the one of the American or worse since he lost more than money???? and this guy has certainly no hope⦠I also understand the spiral with Israelis being hurt when bombed by a terrorist and asking for revenge⦠but this is a blind spiral⦠Please donât say that the Palestinian donât want peace and that their intent are villain that is simply not true..
3/ Very questionable my friend⦠I am Arab and I was not happy at all during sep 11 and I donât think that those people were full of joyâ¦
How many people were killed 15,000 Israelis ???? how do you want me to respect your view if you have the most complete disrespect for Palestinians killed.. innocent civilians are not only Israelis contrary to your beliefs they are also Palestinians.. concerning that whole story I was quite young at that time but what is sure is that Jews were respected in my country and not humiliated like Palestinians are in their own countryâ¦
Yeah, blame it all on Sharon. He must be paying the families of suicide bombers to that kill innocent civilians. He must be the one in it so he can be a billionaire among a constituency of illiterate hateful uneducated people that rejoice in the deaths of people sitting in their offices having a cup of coffee in the World Trade Center.
1/ Sharon is a terrorist and a killer and for me he is no better than the suicide bombers
2/ are you sure that the bombers are just uneducated I donât think so.. The young girl that blew herself was educated and many others were⦠those bombings are not necessarily made by crazy fanatics that is what you donât understand but by people like you and me that have no hope and if you donât understand that simple thing then there is a problem⦠I talked last time of the American guy who killed 9 people including his wife and his children after losing all his money day trading⦠It was just money man!!! only fucking money!!!! and that guy made this crazy thing.. So imagine being a Palestinian today and being humiliated on a day to day basis your father or brother killed and your house destroyed donât you think that his reaction will be the same as the one of the American or worse since he lost more than money???? and this guy has certainly no hope⦠I also understand the spiral with Israelis being hurt when bombed by a terrorist and asking for revenge⦠but this is a blind spiral⦠Please donât say that the Palestinian donât want peace and that their intent are villain that is simply not true..
3/ Very questionable my friend⦠I am Arab and I was not happy at all during sep 11 and I donât think that those people were full of joyâ¦