Starting out - What tools?

Originally posted by Lobster
Last year, I started trading with one of the online brokers....I lost 80 cents (PER SHARE!) on ORCL because my "free" market order was messed with by SOES. Actually, SOES always gives you 100 "token" shares at the quoted price, but the rest is filled at the least favorable price that happens to come along within the next few minutes. ........
As soon as you use market orders, even the most advanced routing capabilities might hand your order over to SOES or a specialist where you will eventually get screwed big time......
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Lobster...as Vinny1 pointed out on this thread...you appear to have a flawed understanding of SOES. There is little likelyhood that an online broker would ever direct a customer's market order to the SOES system since they could not control who takes the other side of the trade as it autoexecutes against the ranking MM at the inside price. In reality, the online broker either takes the other side of the trade themselves or sells the order to a MM who will take it in order to capture the spread. Regarding your other point about the "token 100 shares", I am copying my response to your post on another thread from a few days ago, with the goal of clarifying some of the information for Halycon about SOES.

Originally posted by DATTrader

I think you have your SOES rules a little mixed up....or perhaps you mean IB BEST when you say SOES and maybe that is the mixup, since I do not know how the IB BEST algorithm works.

Your first point is not necessarily correct. If only ECNs are at the inside offer than none of the order would fill since there has to be a MM at the inside offer for any of the order to execute.

Your point two is incorrect (again I am assuming that you mean the whole order is routed to SOES at this point by IB BEST) since the entire order would execute instantly up to the posted AND reserve volume that the MM's had to sell. So if there are MM's at the inside, the order executes instantly. The only time a SOES order is "held up" is when there are no MM's at the inside price. However since MM's are very good at defining a short term top, you are correct that often the MM's will stay away from the inside and then come in to sell when they think the short term momentum is subsiding.

Finally I am not sure what you mean about cancelling the market order...perhaps again this is an IB BEST issue but you can certainly cancel a SOES order anytime prior to it being filled regardless of whether it is limit or market. Hope that helps clarify some of these issues and I would like to hear more from those that use IB BEST to help clarify things more.
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Originally posted by DATTrader


Lobster...as Vinny1 pointed out on this thread...you appear to have a flawed understanding of SOES. There is little likelyhood that an online broker would ever direct a customer's market order to the SOES system since they could not control who takes the other side of the trade as it autoexecutes against the ranking MM at the inside price. In reality, the online broker either takes the other side of the trade themselves or sells the order to a MM who will take it in order to capture the spread. Regarding your other point about the "token 100 shares", I am copying my response to your post on another thread from a few days ago, with the goal of clarifying some of the information for Halycon about SOES.
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OK. I retract anything I have ever said about SOES, since I have no way to prove it. It might well be that my experiences had nothing to do with SOES, I was just assuming that because I know it would be highly unlikely for an ECN to produce the results I have experienced and I always happened to get 100 shares immediately at the quoted inside ask, and the rest always took a little (sometimes a lot) longer and usually got exactly the least favorable price for the whole time period between my giving the order and getting a fill.

Actually, I did not really intend to argue about SOES in this thread, I just wanted to pass on the one thing I have learned about trading so far, namely that market orders can cost you big time if you use them in order to save a few bucks on commissions.

I am sorry if I hurt the feelings of any friends SOES might have, but I hope you will also forgive me if I don't believe that nobody can screw with your order on SOES just because the rules say that you can only get a fill there if their system thinks that they are on the inside at that particular moment.

Actually, I do have a question about SOES: How come it often takes quite a while to execute or even cancel your order on SOES, whereas ECNs can do the same thing in a fraction of a second? Is it because the market maker selflessly takes a few seconds to make sure he does not take to much of your money but gives you a fair price? That must be it, because all the SOES rules can be implemented in a way that will give you instantaneous executions of marketable orders and instantaneous cancels without human intervention, so there must be something else involved in the decision making process with regard to your order than the SOES regulations.
 
I appreciate (not really) all your concerns but I'm not much with talk such as "you're going to get killed".



Thank you Lobster for the input but unfortunately (for this matter) I live in Europe (you need to live in the USA before you can apply to brokerageamerica, financialcafe). And I wasn't going to use market orders ;).



Market-do: I did one trade 1.8 year ago and the trade went against me, I immediately sold the stock. Back then I didn't know about money management, stops, etc. But I had the right reflex from the start. Since then I haven't traded yet.
And I heard enough talk about "the worst thing you can do is make money those first few months", "no one can make money the first months", etc...



Don Bright: "your whole approach is questionable" - lovely, just lovely
And please don't talk me about goals, mental tools and stuff like that (all OK on that front)


PS: "best of luck"? I don't believe in luck.



Now my real question was, what broker should I use (if Ameritrade is not an option) and as I said please don't recommend a per share based broker (unless there is a ceilling price or something similar).
 
"I appreciate (not really) all your concerns but I'm not much with talk such as "you're going to get killed". "
face it u'll never going to get killed only beacuse u not much into it...

"And I heard enough talk about "the worst thing you can do is make money those first few months", "no one can make money the first months", etc... "
...and u dont going to loos money at thr first month because u herd it before...

"Don Bright: "your whole approach is questionable" - lovely, just lovely And please don't talk me about goals, mental tools and stuff like that (all OK on that front) "
...and u dont have any goals because it's "lovely" ....

so first thing u should do is to flip a coin at 10 pm and if it land's on head's u'll buy tail's u'll short the QQQ. The next step is to get on u'r hand's and nee's and pray to God, Santa and the Easter Bunny to reward u for u'r effort's. Most important rule is never take a loss. So if position's go against u u never get out until u get even. And if it still goes against u ull pray harder. and hope that help's, and first do all this on PAPERTRADE then see if u are good for real trade (and aways remember what happend 1.832 year ago)
 
Thank you Nitro, I'll check it out.

Polopo:

I don't really understand much of what your saying.

And I DO have goals (you misunderstood me), I have a very extensive "trading plan".

And why do you think I'll trade on chance and sheer luck? I'm not going to "flip a coin", I'll use basic TA rules.

"Most important rule is never take a loss. So if position's go against u u never get out until u get even."
????

Please read what I say before posting such comments: I will always take my stops, this is a "reflex" I had, even before knowing what a stop was.

Don't forget: there is no god.
 
Originally posted by candletrader
I suggest $50k capital and at least 6 months of living expenses, before you even start thinking about "Tools"...
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I'll start with 25K, not bad either I think ;)
 
You're going to get killed.

Please let us know how it goes when you start off trading 3000-5000 shares.

It seems that your ego is so big that you don't really want much advice. Your whole approach IS questionable, regardless of how "lovely" you think that comment is.

You're going to get killed.

Oh.... and good luck...:)
 
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