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Spydertrader's Jack Hershey Futures Trading Journal
- Thread starter Spydertrader
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I just wanted to share something I noticed about Jack's indicators. Please know it was not intended to say to add it to your screen.
I will add though, there are probably some following this thread that are using the method Spyder is teaching on a different instrument other than the ES. That instrument may not have a p/v relationship as we know, and it is possible that Jack's method could be applied to
Any Market - Any Time Frame - Provided Sufficient Liquidity Exists.
I will add though, there are probably some following this thread that are using the method Spyder is teaching on a different instrument other than the ES. That instrument may not have a p/v relationship as we know, and it is possible that Jack's method could be applied to
Any Market - Any Time Frame - Provided Sufficient Liquidity Exists.
Quote from TIKITRADER:
That instrument may not have a p/v relationship as we know
The P/V relationship is universal. What other markets lack is the equivalent of the YM/INDU pair.
I've noted the relationship between the indicators and the gaussians before. I still feel the Stoch(5,2,3) is useful enough to stay on my charts, especially to catch break-outs from laterals.
Nice observations.
Quote from Avi 8:
Yes, but does that mean Mr. Hershey actually uses them?
When Jack began trading, he used charts hand drawn on Butcher Paper. Having seen these charts, I can tell you what Jack used - Price, Volume, Channels & Gaussians. Jack added the MACD and Stochastic Indicators in the late 1990's (around November 1997) in an effort to assist people in 'seeing' the information Jack could 'see' in a Price Bar. DOM, Tic Charts (or OTR) came along more recently (2003 if memory serves), and again, Jack added these 'finer tools' hoping to assist in the transference process. While it is important to note that the DOM did not make it into the arsenal of tools until 2003, the information provided by the tool itself simply displays Price (and or Volume) in a different 'way' than a Normal Price Bar displays. Eighty Percent of the time Jack traded (meaning 40 of Jack's 50 years of trading experience), he did not use any Indicators. Not until the advent of Qcharts did Jack add the MACD and The Stochastics.
Easyrider used the MACD and Stochastic Indicator to grow a $5000 USD account into over $200,000 USD in just under 2 years. Clearly, some people do find value in their use (as is evident by easyrider's success). However, a major downside to using the indicators exists on any 'gap day' - especially when the market gaps by a significant amount. When such an environment occurs, the 'gap' is 'baked into the cake' (so to speak) for a period of time - thereby rendering the indicators useless. In addition, Indicators do lag - by their very design.
One can perform a very simple drill in order to 'see' whether the addition of the MACD and The Stochastic Indicator might prove useful to one's individual trading. Simply, enter a trade (using a simulator) when The Stochastic 5-2-3 cross the 50% line in one direction. Exit when the Stochastic 5-2-3 crosses back in the opposite direction. One could even use the 'trigger' from the YM to trade the ES. One needs to perform this drill live - and not using static hindsight charts.
Anyone expecting 'the Holy Grail' from adding these indicators should review easyrider's posts.
Again, some people may find value in adding these Indicators to there charts. Many, will simply find them distracting. Should people wish to discuss their use here, I have no objection. However, I encourage a review of the older threads (linked from page one of this journal) first as this has all been discussed many times before.
Good trading to you all.
- Spydertrader
Jack had a thread on the Stochastic Indicator.
Some readers mistaken the discussion as a grail revelation, and started asking many questions relating to signals and their corresponding "action".
The thread quickly became a "system" development discussion. Along the way, Jack introduced MACD into the discussion... then channels... then P/V, CCC, BO, FTP, etc.
I hope you got the drift.
Some readers mistaken the discussion as a grail revelation, and started asking many questions relating to signals and their corresponding "action".
The thread quickly became a "system" development discussion. Along the way, Jack introduced MACD into the discussion... then channels... then P/V, CCC, BO, FTP, etc.
I hope you got the drift.
Quote from TIKITRADER:
I will add though, there are probably some following this thread that are using the method Spyder is teaching on a different instrument other than the ES. That instrument may not have a p/v relationship as we know,
I was referring to the possibility that somebody following this journal may be using it other than the ES. That the use of Jacks indicator settings and the method Spydertrader has taught, could be of value to someone in the forex market where volume presents a problem to some.
Yes I agree, I hope I didn't come across in the wrong way.Quote from Spydertrader:
...Should people wish to discuss their use here, I have no objection. However, I encourage a review of the older threads...
Just wanted to point out for those that come across this journal later, indicators are not the 'missing' piece of the puzzle and no substitute for doing 'the work'.
Thank you Spydertrader for your post and all your efforts here and elsewhere.
Now that this journal is nearing completion -
Thank you Spydertrader for your journals, your integrity, your patience and and for the enormous amount of work and time you have put into this. Your journals are simply outstanding and one of a kind (or rather three of a kind). Thank you Jack for sharing your method so freely. And of course, thank you to all posters through the years.
I have enjoyed the journals almost daily for the past three years - and I really hope there will be a fourth (I know, I know).
cheers,
tobbe
Thank you Spydertrader for your journals, your integrity, your patience and and for the enormous amount of work and time you have put into this. Your journals are simply outstanding and one of a kind (or rather three of a kind). Thank you Jack for sharing your method so freely. And of course, thank you to all posters through the years.
I have enjoyed the journals almost daily for the past three years - and I really hope there will be a fourth (I know, I know).
cheers,
tobbe
I must rhyme in with a lot of the recent posters on the utility of using "ancillary diagnostic tests". Spyder's methodology, save for the 20 SMA, is indicator-free and I think that in so far as getting new members to the tribe into the mindset of thinking "PV", it is an excellent (might I say, unsurpassed) way to do this. As I (and I'm sure many, many others) have said, if you can't construct a correct channel, forget about any of the other stuff, until you can. There's no free lunch and there is certainly no freakin' magic bullet.
That said, there is, IMO, much to be said in a positive way about the selective incorporation of other Hershey "market probes" into one's particular armamentarium, and for that matter, probes other than those espoused by JTH.
cnms2 likes the Stochs and MACD entities, point 1 likes the Stochs, I like the MACD and as well an EMA fan [please note that I am not equating my ST/JH method skills to those individuals just mentioned]. There are also "static" data points like the prior day's high and low, the overnight high and low, and traders' pivot points which I also include in my basket of tricks.
You may remember that little "gorilla video" from last month I believe, which showed quite graphically how when you are "concentrating" on something (or not concentrating for that matter), you can completely miss other things going on right underneath your nose. There is another aspect to this sort of sort of process whereby, consciously, or unconsciously you "neglect" something in your field of view.
So if you are sitting in front of your 'puter, looking at your chart and focussing on, let's say, the trader's P, S1 and R1 and neglecting everything else, then I would suggest you have a problem. As I'm sure many of you are aware, there are traders who do exactly what I've just mentioned and too bad for them - edge-trading at its worst. BUT if you "glance" at the pivot points, certain Highs and Lows, certain Jackobian or Spyderite indicators to remind yourself that the herd (and the smart$ crew as well) pay some attention to these pointes d'intérêt, then, IMO, that's OK.
Avi8 appears to be more of a purist with respect to what should and shouldn't be used on the chart. As Jack would say "kewl". I don't happen to agree with him. So what.
What we do agree upon, I think, is that PV is bedrock - period. One must be able to construct "PV-rigorous" channels and by that I mean "Gaussian-driven" channels or else go off to some other thread and learn some other method [I can think of some particularly nasty ones to recommend as a quick way to lose money]. The best possible paradigm to compare your efforts to is Spyder's EOD charts. That's what I use and if I think I've got something 'better" than his or have a question about what I'm seeing, then I post a chart [and this weekend will learn to post in a more user-friendly way]. There are lots of ways to make use of his considerable skills and I continue to be totally impressed with his daily devotion, manifest in that unbelievably annotatively-detailed EOD chart.
As an aside, in the past he and I have had some discussions about volume and trendlines. I was speaking from a VSA (volume spread analysis)/"classical single trendline" point of view while he was talking PV/channels. His approach to volume and trendlines is superior to the one I was using but one of the important lessons I learned from VSA is ALWAYS LOOK TO THE LEFT - it provides a certain kind of useful context. There are also some useful "macro" volume concepts present in the VSA market view but that story is for another time and another thread.
So blah, blah and blah, it's Saturday AM and I've been up since 5 AM (trading on the West Coast and all that) and it's time to STFU and do some Christmas shopping.
A good weekend to all,
lj
That said, there is, IMO, much to be said in a positive way about the selective incorporation of other Hershey "market probes" into one's particular armamentarium, and for that matter, probes other than those espoused by JTH.
cnms2 likes the Stochs and MACD entities, point 1 likes the Stochs, I like the MACD and as well an EMA fan [please note that I am not equating my ST/JH method skills to those individuals just mentioned]. There are also "static" data points like the prior day's high and low, the overnight high and low, and traders' pivot points which I also include in my basket of tricks.
You may remember that little "gorilla video" from last month I believe, which showed quite graphically how when you are "concentrating" on something (or not concentrating for that matter), you can completely miss other things going on right underneath your nose. There is another aspect to this sort of sort of process whereby, consciously, or unconsciously you "neglect" something in your field of view.
So if you are sitting in front of your 'puter, looking at your chart and focussing on, let's say, the trader's P, S1 and R1 and neglecting everything else, then I would suggest you have a problem. As I'm sure many of you are aware, there are traders who do exactly what I've just mentioned and too bad for them - edge-trading at its worst. BUT if you "glance" at the pivot points, certain Highs and Lows, certain Jackobian or Spyderite indicators to remind yourself that the herd (and the smart$ crew as well) pay some attention to these pointes d'intérêt, then, IMO, that's OK.
Avi8 appears to be more of a purist with respect to what should and shouldn't be used on the chart. As Jack would say "kewl". I don't happen to agree with him. So what.
What we do agree upon, I think, is that PV is bedrock - period. One must be able to construct "PV-rigorous" channels and by that I mean "Gaussian-driven" channels or else go off to some other thread and learn some other method [I can think of some particularly nasty ones to recommend as a quick way to lose money]. The best possible paradigm to compare your efforts to is Spyder's EOD charts. That's what I use and if I think I've got something 'better" than his or have a question about what I'm seeing, then I post a chart [and this weekend will learn to post in a more user-friendly way]. There are lots of ways to make use of his considerable skills and I continue to be totally impressed with his daily devotion, manifest in that unbelievably annotatively-detailed EOD chart.
As an aside, in the past he and I have had some discussions about volume and trendlines. I was speaking from a VSA (volume spread analysis)/"classical single trendline" point of view while he was talking PV/channels. His approach to volume and trendlines is superior to the one I was using but one of the important lessons I learned from VSA is ALWAYS LOOK TO THE LEFT - it provides a certain kind of useful context. There are also some useful "macro" volume concepts present in the VSA market view but that story is for another time and another thread.
So blah, blah and blah, it's Saturday AM and I've been up since 5 AM (trading on the West Coast and all that) and it's time to STFU and do some Christmas shopping.
A good weekend to all,
lj
Something Spyder has said over and over is that we should forget what we think we know. I found thinking about this and putting into practice were two totally different things. How does one forget what they think they know? For me, it was a simple process that took over 1.5 years to complete. By annotating the charts first, in hindsight, then in real time correctly. I canât stress this enough, for me it was absolutely imperative that I annotate everything within my level. Just doing this morning after morning in real time, and then in the evening in hindsight, when I get home from work. In my opinion, Spyder gives accurate, complete, step-by-step guidance for trading, but you have to follow it precisely. So for those of you, who still have problems seeing the market the Hershey/Spyder style, then better follow Spyders advice he gave last month,
âPutting it all togetherâ
For me, I have found that annotating the YM with all I know at the forest level. (Gaussians, 1,2,3 FTT,FBO,BO, pennants) I am fine-tuning my ability to anticipate the ES price movement. I have come to a place in my ability where annotation is automatic, and like I posted to Callmate, Iâm on autopilot. If I can do it, you can do it!
Incidentally, for me, the stochastic indicators are a hindrance because I found myself waiting for the Stochastics to signal. I kept thinking, is the line going cross over or not, and ignoring the price/volume action within the channel.
I know flavors of this post have been posted time and time again, but if there are still those following along that are having difficulty, be sure to follow Spyders advice, and keep at it, donât give up.
Padawan posted a Chart that got me back on track. Thank you for posting that Padawan, it was big help to me.
Good trading to you,
Gooch87
âPutting it all togetherâ
For me, I have found that annotating the YM with all I know at the forest level. (Gaussians, 1,2,3 FTT,FBO,BO, pennants) I am fine-tuning my ability to anticipate the ES price movement. I have come to a place in my ability where annotation is automatic, and like I posted to Callmate, Iâm on autopilot. If I can do it, you can do it!
Incidentally, for me, the stochastic indicators are a hindrance because I found myself waiting for the Stochastics to signal. I kept thinking, is the line going cross over or not, and ignoring the price/volume action within the channel.
I know flavors of this post have been posted time and time again, but if there are still those following along that are having difficulty, be sure to follow Spyders advice, and keep at it, donât give up.
Padawan posted a Chart that got me back on track. Thank you for posting that Padawan, it was big help to me.
Good trading to you,
Gooch87
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