Quote from Spydertrader:
Thanks for the clarification. Your second .pdf confirmed what I already had thought - we were discussing two different fractals with respect to Harmonics (Channels / Trends vs. Bar to Bar).
Yes - this is what first made me look deeper into what Jack had written compared to your recent posts, as I know his stuff pertains to the overall trend development not just pairs of bars or intra-bar reversals.
Unfortunately, I still have difficulty placing your explanation into the context of continuation vs change.
Me too. Wouldn't it be neat though if we nail it down, finally, here on this thread?
You see, this is the part that throws me, and as a result, I must ask the question, why do we want (or need) to detect the underlying changes? If when looking at a channel or traverse, I see an Odd Harmonic, I think change or reverse. - whether Triangular (Spike) or Square (Double Top / Double Bottom). If, when looking at a channel or traverse, I see an Even Harmonic (Lateral movement), I think continuation or Hold. More importantly, the tools we have at our disposal signal these changes in advance of an FTT. Now, using your examples (and assuming I do know the exact moment the market changed from an Odd to an Even), how does this help me make money?
LOL! (good natured chuckle). This is exactly the thought that occurred to me when I saw you were re-naming double tops, reversal spikes and laterals in terms of harmonics - what does it add by classifying it in these terms? Do you see that you have only re-named a phenomena we were already aware of - no new insight is gained (so far). (Unless Iâve missed something.)
This is a pretty important point:
1. does the analysis of the underlying harmonics (specifically A/D action) help me understand what is going on?
2. does it help me anticipate what is coming next?
3. is it actionable in a timely manner so I can profit from it?
I'm sure Jack would answer these questions with a resounding "Yes". Like you, I am still grappling with how this all adds anything to the money making process. One important aspect of how it helps, I think, is in improving the trader's EQ - he has more support, comfort and confidence if he knows the market's mode (objectively) at any time. That's an intangible benefit which is worth dollars to any trader.
Your approach, which clearly and demonstrably works exceptionally well, is the What happens stuff. Jack is explaining How and Why the market moves as it does. What happens is sufficient to make tons of money, the other levels of knowledge (How and Why) add further confidence (and perhaps transferable confidence).
The nearest I can figure is during periods of (your) Square Wave Even Harmonic, I wouldn't want to be trading a retrace as the relative steepness of the channel / traverse renders the retrace of short duration at best and as lateral movement at worst.
Exactly, that is what is demonstrated in those examples, and Jack talks of retraces that you reverse into and those you hold through (or sideline the lateral until P3).
Well, we already hold during periods of lateral Price movement, so again, how does knowing the exact moment of Harmonic Shift provide a benefit?
One example of where it is of benefit is when the pace is slow, volume is down and you are just coming out of dry up into a breakout. A/D gives the heads up. Iâm sure Jack can point to others.
Clearly what you (and Jack) describe refers to the overall type of Market. Your examples provide a very clear picture in this regard.
Yes. It's actually pretty cool to get a description of trend behaviour built up from a handful of simple cyclical functions super-posed on a signal carrier wave. Of course, there is nothing new in this, but where Jack takes it further is using the resulting market modes to eliminate all that cannot happen next so he is left with only what will happen. This is the context stuff which goes beyond pairs of bars or intra-bar analysis.
In contrast, what I have outlined pertains to the Points of Change (or Continuation) within the overall market itself.
Which we could already identify without 1. knowing what causes them or 2. naming them.
I ask these questions because I have never viewed the market (or Harmonics) as you (and Jack) have described, nor has my trading suffered because of it (or perhaps it has, and I simply didn't realize it). If such a view as you (and Jack) describe can provide an added benefit, then I look forward to learning something new.
I don't claim to be able to help you make more money
. My intention rather was to correct some misconceptions on this thread about what Jack had said regarding harmonics and any perception that he had somehow got it wrong or was deliberately misleading. This exercise has helped me learn what we do and don't know of Jack's view on the cyclical nature of markets. You've met the guy - didn't this stuff come up?
Although I have yet to see how such a view satisfies two fundamental requirements of this methodology,
1. Works on any fractal (not timeframe in this instance)
2. Differentiates between continuation and change
I do look forward to the continuing discussion. Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions, and enjoy the remainder of the weekend.
- Spydertrader
I really hope Jack adds some thoughts here - it would be ironic if he misses this dialogue after putting in so much effort on all those other threads. Glad to see Banjo has dropped in.
Thanks Spyder, sorry for the slow response â I was enjoying the weekend.