Spydertrader's Jack Hershey Futures Trading Journal

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Quote from R/R:

This is FTT - FTT trading. It is more advanced than the "beginner FTT" trading originally discussed because one doesn't exit on the FBO.

Bundle and others have lost the context of Spyder's change to beginner Pt3 entry, RTL exit rules. This change was for training purposes because we were having trouble with the FTT's.

One practices the Forest trades (paper/sim/observation) with the assumption that the perfect point 3 entry was made even if the real entry was a mile away. The trades are managed as such to learn to hone down the point 3 entry skills and follow the rules without looking at the P&L. The P&L will likely do well only on trend days until the entries are mastered.

BTW, good stuff cnms2, thanks
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Well, I'd have to respectfully disagree with you.

If one has the skill set to recognize the FTT at the beginning of cnms2's example chart - the green channel - and enter there, then one also recognizes the FTT at the end of the green channel as a place to reverse. SCT level skills, IMHO.

Anyways, my first suggestion on Tuesday afternoon was to exit at the FTT after his pt3 entry, which would have yielded about 2 pts. And like Procrast stated, of few of those and you're making 5-10 pts/day.
 
Quote from Haroki:

Well, I'd have to respectfully disagree with you.

If one has the skill set to recognize the FTT at the beginning of cnms2's example chart - the green channel - and enter there, then one also recognizes the FTT at the end of the green channel as a place to reverse. SCT level skills, IMHO.

Anyways, my first suggestion on Tuesday afternoon was to exit at the FTT after his pt3 entry, which would have yielded about 2 pts. And like Procrast stated, of few of those and you're making 5-10 pts/day.
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This is where I'm coming from on this cnms2 diagram. I'm not addressing your idea and Pro's response.
Jack's "pure" SCT ~ 40 trades/day. Expert skill set. IMO cnms2 diagram example similar to below. (Spyder's quote was before change of Forest trade pt 3 entry rule.)

Spyder 1/30/07: "Referring to 'level of detail,' beginners should focus on the 'Coarse' Levels - or what I commonly refer to as 'The Forest.' Coarse level resolution has the beginning trader focus on trading 'FTT to FTT' intraday. These are the major trends we often see throughout the trading day. Following the FTT's which present themselves at this level provides 4 to 8 trades each day. We refer to these traders as 'FTT Level' traders. 'Sub FTT' Level traders look for FTT's occurring within the 'Legs' of the trading day. 'Sub-Sub' FTT traders look for FTT's within the Traverses (taped channels). See Attached 'Levels' Chart Below." http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=1344558
 
Quote from R/R:

This is where I'm coming from on this cnms2 diagram. I'm not addressing your idea and Pro's response.
Jack's "pure" SCT ~ 40 trades/day. Expert skill set. IMO cnms2 diagram example similar to below. (Spyder's quote was before change of Forest trade pt 3 entry rule.)

Spyder 1/30/07: "Referring to 'level of detail,' beginners should focus on the 'Coarse' Levels - or what I commonly refer to as 'The Forest.' Coarse level resolution has the beginning trader focus on trading 'FTT to FTT' intraday. These are the major trends we often see throughout the trading day. Following the FTT's which present themselves at this level provides 4 to 8 trades each day. We refer to these traders as 'FTT Level' traders. 'Sub FTT' Level traders look for FTT's occurring within the 'Legs' of the trading day. 'Sub-Sub' FTT traders look for FTT's within the Traverses (taped channels). See Attached 'Levels' Chart Below." http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=1344558
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Therein lies the difficulty for me.

Your definitions of SCT are of course correct. But the original "FTT Trader" definition relied on basically the same skill set as an SCT trader to get in on the first FTT. Cuz in my own pea-brained view, if I were entering long on that first FTT, then I'd have the skills necessary to be exiting/reversing on the first FTT of the new up channel/tape. And then entering short, then reversing on an FTT of that channel and entering long, etc, etc. I think this is where a lot of us were dropping down to an inappropriate resolution level. In other words, I don't have that skill set.

This is why I believe the "enter on a pt3" for forrest traders was developed. It eliminates dropping down. And in the context of Bundle's problems, his difficulties can't be helped by dropping down.
 
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Quote from Haroki:

Therein lies the difficulty for me.

Your definitions of SCT are of course correct. But the original "FTT Trader" definition relied on basically the same skill set as an SCT trader to get in on the first FTT. Cuz in my own pea-brained view, if I were entering long on that first FTT, then I'd have the skills necessary to be exiting/reversing on the first FTT of the new up channel/tape.
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Try altering your perception ever so slightly.

What you describe has you 'jumping fractals' so to speak. "FTT to FTT" Trading describes an environment where the trader remains on the same fractal while holding through Non-Dominant Traverses, and not, "exiting or reversing on the on the first FTT of the new 'tape.'" In other words, once a trader identifies an FTT and enters, the trader should not reverse on another FTT until after the formation of a Point Three. In this fashion, the trader remains on the same resolution level, avoids falling down the rabbit hole and learns to correctly anticipate "what must come next." In addition, the skill set required to perform this task falls well short of the necessary expertise required to trade at an SCT level.

Also, R/R correctly articulates why I posted the 'Point Three' Forest Level instructions. Designed exclusively as a learning tool, one can achieve profitability using them, but I intended the instructions to assist those unable (at the time) to locate an FTT within a relatively quick period of time. After all, a Point One (and often a Point Three) define themselves (usually) by an FTT of an opposite directional channel. Hence, by learning to 'see' the Point Three's, one really, is training their brain to 'see' the FTT - without even realizing it. :)

Keep up the great work folks, and thanks to everyone for their continued contributions.

- Spydertrader
 
Quote from Spydertrader:

Try altering your perception ever so slightly.

What you describe has you 'jumping fractals' so to speak. "FTT to FTT" Trading describes an environment where the trader remains on the same fractal while holding through Non-Dominant Traverses, and not, "exiting or reversing on the on the first FTT of the new 'tape.'" In other words, once a trader identifies an FTT and enters, the trader should not reverse on another FTT until after the formation of a Point Three. In this fashion, the trader remains on the same resolution level, avoids falling down the rabbit hole and learns to correctly anticipate "what must come next." In addition, the skill set required to perform this task falls well short of the necessary expertise required to trade at an SCT level.

Also, R/R correctly articulates why I posted the 'Point Three' Forest Level instructions. Designed exclusively as a learning tool, one can achieve profitability using them, but I intended the instructions to assist those unable (at the time) to locate an FTT within a relatively quick period of time. After all, a Point One (and often a Point Three) define themselves (usually) by an FTT of an opposite directional channel. Hence, by learning to 'see' the Point Three's, one really, is training their brain to 'see' the FTT - without even realizing it. :)

Keep up the great work folks, and thanks to everyone for their continued contributions.

- Spydertrader
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Absolutely about changing fractals.

This makes a lot of sense to me now. But a few Q's.

Let's take the obvious 11:45 FTT as an example. You're saying enter long here and hold through the retrace until 12:45, there's your pt3. I have a blue line there - actually, it's a "pt 5" since it's been there already, LOL. So for a forest trader, hold until the blue line is broken?

But let's say it retraced further - there's no reason to take a loss - get out for a wash, or earlier for a small gain if one sees some obvious signs of inc red and so a change of dom direction?

I guess that's the crux of my confusion then - how to know that "this" FTT won't be violated (weird term?). I guess I can't until I start trading at a tree level?
 
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